Wow, they’re pretty terrible, in fact. Sheesh.
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Yes. Like. Actually just terrible
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Mangle increases the damage of your next maul
Stop, Blizzard.
Current maul is awful, no matter how many procs or stacks of things we get to empower it. Stop trying to force it on us.
Give us back the “on next GCD” maul we had back in Vanilla/BC.
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Yeah even as a casual player I don’t understand their reasoning. The highest key I’ve run so far is like +14, but unless I’m missing something I don’t think I’ve ever used Maul throughout any runs.
I just don’t get it…
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There’s just never a reason to push maul over iron fur.
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They aren’t buffing Bears they just keep proving they don’t like the spec and pay absolutely no attention to it or the community.
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I posted this on another post about guardian strengths. “So, I would agree that the playstyle is not as interesting. But I would also suggest you take the class as what it is, and that is just a huge damage sponge. I have been playing with maximizing a mastery build, and near 2 million HP with procs. Combining that with the two Ny’alotha trinkets and survival instincts… it is making some interesting gameplay to say the least, regarding how much tanking mechanics you can avoid. I am currently working on my Heroic solo tanking, Mythic solo tanking will be next as soon as the guild gets there. I am playing it against what most people play it as, and it is seeming to be more fun this way. But I have always viewed and had great experience with mastery being the primary stat for druids, personally.”
Does your paladin co-tank know you’re solo tanking all these fights? 
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Wasn’t intentional mate, what’d you ask?
Or you could just compare in 8.2 in EP, where guardian still performed quite well.
Guardian also has slows in it’s talent tree. Including that doesn’t exactly hurt any case I was making.
Really? So assuming you can’t intercept something, you’re relying on a 45s cd leap. That’s what you qualify as extremely short?
Which is another talent
They absolutely are? What
They literally do. Every tank, since BFA first came around, is designed to be weak to magic and bleed damage, and lack the ability to self sustain. Some tanks are better at one than the others, but no one tank is specifically strong in any of the three categories. Just less-weak than the others.
That’s a personal problem, not a design problem.
I disagree. How do we go forward, would you draw straws to see who holds fasces?
Borrowed power…that everyone benefits from. So why would guardian rise in capability relative to others, not just purely in a vacuum?
Look at you go
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/23/#class=Tanks&dataset=99×pan=1000
Huh.
I’m not going to reply to every point here because your replies are very clearly disingenuous. The slowing options available to guardians are significantly worse than all other classes, and the talents come with significantly higher opportunity cost.
Since relative strength is what is actually important, the fact that some are “less weak” than others is entirely the problem. There is no intrinsic value of “strong” or “weak” for these characteristics, the only valuable measure is relativistic. Other tanks are “less-weak” enough than bear at magic damage to such a point that bear has a notable relative weakness compared with other tanks.
No, it’s a design problem. Again, this argument is disingenuous, you’re clearly knowledgeable enough to know that what you are saying is patently ridiculous in context.
Some are right. Some are wrong. You are wrong.
If I take a base of 50 and add 50, I get 100, for a relative rise of 100%. If I take a base of 100 and add 50, I get 150, for a relative rise of 50%. 100 is more than 50. Shall I draw a graph?
If I am at 50 and you are at 100, you are 100% stronger than me.
If I am at 100 and you are at 150, you are 50% stronger than me.
Relative strength is the means of comparison between people trying to fulfill the same role.
Yes, look at me go.
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le sigh
I asked what changes, if any would you make to Guardian?
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I know you weren’t asking me but here’s what I would do off the top of my head:
Wild Charge made baseline with a Intervene (castable on party members) component OR revert tying Vortex & Typhoon to affinities making them mutually exclusive. If not being able to utilize Typhoon/Vortex, then one plus Wild Charge to an ally I would consider to be sufficient for creating space.
Thrash slow returned, this one is for parity as every other tank has the ability to snare mobs in their toolkit.
Shifting into Bear Form provides 40 rage. I know they “addressed” us getting clapped at the start of a pull with the Conduit, but no other tank needs to wait several GCDs to get their active mitigation rolling, and I don’t think that we should have to commit a Barkskin or worse SI before even entering combat.
3 minutes is too long for Berserk CD. Make it 30 second duration baseline like Incarnation, or better yet make it a 2 minute CD like similar tank offensive cool downs.
For talents, mixing Renewal with movement abilities makes no sense. WC should already be baseline, and I don’t have a great suggestion for what to do with Tiger Dash (do people take this talent?), but the row should have 2 new healing based talents to go with Renewal if that’s the direction they really want to take. Option B ditch Renewal, or put that on Resto Affinity and swap Vortex in to compete with WC/Tiger’s Dash. Still not ideal but I could at least buy that Vortex has some reason to be on the movement tier.
The last talent row needs some work as there is only one option as it stands now. You lose too much with Pulverize as it is on live outside of a couple niche fights where environmental damage is high, so it’s 99% Rend and Tear. This will be exacerbated by nerfing Pulv, and Lunar Beam has and always will be a meme in its current iteration. Without coming up with entirely new talents here, something like rage spent whilst standing in your Lunar Beam reduces the CD of Berserk a la Anger Management would at least be a decent start.
My problem is that they keep not addressing glaring holes in the base class, and while the design seems to be trying to patch those holes with layered systems, our Conduits are beyond bunk and don’t patch anything.
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Curious question: What would you put in place of WC after making it baseline?
TBH I’m wondering how Heart of the Wild is going to play out in in dungeons as a Guardian. Like, are we expected to switch over to cat, moonkin, or even healing in the middle of tanking?
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All in all the SL talent row for Guardian druid just seems weird to me. You have Tiger Dash (super quick dash but requires you to drop bear form and rage, oof), a self heal, and Wild Charge (which should be baseline I agree) all on the same row.
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We still have the affinities which are mostly only taken for the passives so their attempt to give us back some of the old school druid feel is moot.
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The level 35 row has two crowd control effects (stun, mass roots) and HotW. BTW can someone explain to me how this talent is going to be used other than a dps cooldown. It seems like they are trying to embrace the hybrid fantasy. The only problem is that the design of this game has long since moved away from hybrid play other than a few self heals here and there or maybe rogue evasion tanking, for example.
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Easiest option would be to replace Wild Charge with Double Time for Druids to give WC a second charge. Maybe add the Intervene component on this talent as well to make it more of a decision vs Vortex.
Now in a perfect world we could get something cool, such as a talent that replaces WC but on a longer cool down and pulls in enemies within X yards of the primary target. Call it Bear Hug or something.
Another option would be to modify Stampeding Roar here, which would give some exclusive utility back to Guardians after giving roar to all Druids. Maybe a % HP increase like Rallying Cry for a group CD? Or maybe a little absorb shield. Otherwise longer duration, or higher move speed, etc.
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I think it’s at least a 1 minute CD for us and 2 minutes for everyone else. I’d love to have Wild Charge baked in and maybe something like Legion’s Roar talent in it’s place. I think it doubled or tripled Stampeding Roar’s range and halved it’s CD. I think it increased Incapacitating Roar’s range too, but not as much.
A 30 second CD on a group sprint might be a bit much, though, so maybe the increased range and bring back it’s ability to break roots and movement speed impairing effects?
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Having a shorter CD compared to the other Druids isn’t going to be enough to sway people on the fence about whether to bring a Guardian or a different tank though, especially if you have a Resto and a DPS Druid in the raid already, it’s not often you need that much raid movement that often. If they aren’t going to fix the fundamental issues with the base layer of GD then unique utility would at least see us dragged through stuff kicking and screaming 
I’d be happy with AoE movement impairment break though!
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Yeah, I didn’t mean to imply that just the shorter CD was enough but just that they at least tossed us a crumb when they gave Roar to all specs. A tiny, tiny crumb.
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But, it really, really doesn’t though. This is something people have been saying on these forums all expansion, but it’s never really been true. Paladin is the best for magic damage, followed by bdk. Bdk is the best at bleeds, followed by vdh, Every other tank is behind them, and has at best niche strength, such as SR for pwarr. But even they suffer against it, outside of those scenarios.
No, I simply disagree. If you don’t like how the class plays, spec plays, pick another one.
I disagree. You are wrong. Look, an impasse. Amazing.
So show me how you’re drawing this comparison of relative increases in strength between the tanks over the course of the expansion.
I wouldn’t make any, because what I’d personally like, I know many would dislike. And as many who dislike it, would love it, and others hate it, others simply not care. I don’t envy the designers in this role.
I like aspects of guardian from MoP, WoD, bits from Cataclysm, and parts of Legion. But that goes for every spec I’ve played, and I don’t think it’s possible to combine them all without coming away with a mess.
If you aren’t going to suggest any changes to help make the spec better, then why are you here, Derez?
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On mmo champion there are some new changes I believe:
Guardian
- [Guardian Druid] Increases damage/healing by 16%: Brambles, Lunar Beam, Mangle, Maul, Pulverize, Thrash Increases periodic damage/healing by 16%: Brambles, Lunar Beam, Mangle, Maul, Pulverize, Thrash Increases damage/healing by 83%: Regrowth Increases periodic damage/healing by 83%: Regrowth
Decreases damage/healing by 37%: MoonfireIncreases damage/healing by 300%: Thrash Increases periodic damage/healing by 300%: Thrash Druid - Guardian Spec. Druid - Guardian Spec.
IDK what to think of these changes.
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