I may have misunderstood, though, through no fault of yours.
I think we may also be differing in our definition of “personal grudge”. You seem - forgive me if I’m putting words in your mouth - to mean in the sense of “personal hesitation or distrust”, and I’m probably meaning it…well, like a dwarf grudge. Like “need to be talked down before violence”.
Overall it seems that we agree on the broader strokes of things; which is strange and frightening given how forums discussion goes.
Honestly confused how someone roleplaying an Alliance character killing a Horde roleplayer in Stormwind with the PvP system is OOC.
As you’ve seen even here in this thread, there will be people who are salty about it OOC if you go around declaring character a Sin’dorei, or play any other Horde-aligned race in the city. People do bring Goblins, Vulpera, Trolls, etc. to Stormwind on occasion, either attempting it on their Horde characters with CrossRP (this is a bad plan and always leads to OOC PVP) or by just declaring it in their TRP, potentially while using toys to change their appearance, and it’s always pure chaos.
The problem is that people will have their characters take issue with the presence of any Horde-aligned race ever “fOr ThE pRInCiPLE”, because of their OOC views that it “shouldn’t be allowed and would never happen, ever” and that it’s “World of WARcraft not PEACEcraft” and “BUT MY TREE”. All of those are valid feelings for a character to hold, depending on their history, but let’s just say that there’s a suspiciously high correlation between characters who suddenly discover their jingoistic nationalist sentiments when their player just happens to be of the opinion that people playing Horde characters in Stormwind are just looking for attention and are doing it wrong somehow. So that’s always going to be a factor.
But, that all having been said, your character identifying herself as Sin’dorei despite defecting is a bit odd. I have a character who was Sin’dorei, she was super rah-rah about Kael’thas and worked as an Astromancer in Tempest Keep. She was heartbroken when he fell to corruption but still considered herself to be an advocate of her people before anything. When Alleria’s group decided to go to the Alliance, she went with them because she was deeply tired of aggressive Orcs and yelling Trolls. The Quel’dorei who escaped to the Outlands with Kael identified as Quel’dorei for centuries, they only called themselves Sin’dorei as a political distinction for a handful of years - sort of like the difference between Eredar and Draenei, the label denotes an ideological, not a physical difference. She’s old enough to remember occasional trips to Lordaeron/Stormwind with her Quel’dorei dipolomat father.
She still considers herself to be loyal to her people above all else, wherever they are and whatever they call themselves is irrelevant. She also considers herself to be an Arcanist above all, and never really muddled about much with Fel or the Void, and although Fel was fueling the Sunwell for a while, that has been purged and cleansed since BC - as reflected by the fact that Blood Elves can now be rolled up with varying degrees of blue eyes, showing that the fel taint is ebbing. She can remember the Sunwell (which has been cleansed/restored since BC) wherever she is, no matter what color her eyes and hair are, except in nice clean non-muddy buildings free of spikes.
All THAT having been said, that’s just my personal take on it, that’s not the way it has to be if your take is different and I’m not going to say that you’re necessarily “wrong” for doing it otherwise. But from my POV, it’s a little like, and this is an extreme example, Germany in the modern day. These days, we don’t have a problem with Germans. German tourists come here, people from Germany immigrate here, it’s fine despite the fact that they were once our violent enemies. If someone says “I’m German” no one even bats an eye, because that’s just a description of the country that they come from.
If, on the other hand, they said that they are part of a specific problematic political party that was German, people will have a big problem with that. Because someone calling themselves…that specific thing…is declaring their ideology, not their nationality.
A character still calling themselves a Sin’dorei after defecting seems a little like that. The Sin’dorei part seems to be a purely political distinction that denotes that they still hold hostile views towards the Alliance and align themselves with the Horde. Now, RPing as a secret Sin’dorei spy, I could see that. Trying to find a way to undermine the Alliance from within while posing as a Ren’dorei or Quel’dorei (depending on whether they dabble with the Void or not) could be interesting. But I can’t really personally see why someone would continue to call themselves Sin’dorei unless their loyalties were still to the Horde, and if they were…they probably wouldn’t wear it on their sleeve, publicly, is my personal take on it.
Hello!
Personally, my character does not speak much of his past. While he is openly admitting to his acceptance of a change into a ren’dorei, he still keeps his opinions on past political alignments to himself.
That being said, I would view it more of a thought process that I wouldn’t go into North Korea and say that I’m an American, so why would I go into Stormwind in disguise and admit I’m actually a horde afiliated race? I would first make friends and then make decisions to disclose whenever I feel that I can trust them.
Hope that helps!
I think this is debatable.
Even in Eversong you’ll find some Blood Elves who just aren’t happy being part of the Horde. One might argue things have changed since then, but most every expansion has somehow proven that’s not the case.
Blood Elves split off from Quel’Thalas far too often.
In Burning Crusade we saw this with the Scryers, whom defected from the Sunfury, but ended up remaining outside of Quel’Thalas once everything was said and done.
In Wrath we saw it with the Sunreavers, who wanted to rebuild old connections, and Aethas’ sentiments later make it clear he doesn’t think the Horde is in the best interests of Quel’Thalas.
Even groups that didn’t really split off, like the Reliquary, were far more interested in operating in the interests of Quel’Thalas alone, instead of the Horde.
The most recent example we really have of Blood Elves splintering off because they just don’t like the Horde that much would be the Void Elves. Yes, they were banished for their research, but if they liked the Horde at all they’d have just gone to hang out with the Forsaken and the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow.
Lor’themar pays a lot of lip service about Quel’Thalas being a part of the Horde, but it doesn’t seem like a lot of other Blood Elves really feel the same. Even those too loyal to Quel’Thalas to want to leave it seem to have strong Alliance connections, such as Liadrin and the Draenei.
I think a Blood Elf wanting to defect to the Alliance isn’t out of the question. Likewise, while the difference between Blood Elves and High Elves is mostly a political one, there are still some Blood Elves working for the Alliance whom identify as Blood Elves, such as Valeera Sanguinar.
…it’s…weird…with elves.
I think there’s a bit of murkiness when it comes to ‘blood elves’. If memory serves, they didn’t immediately adopt that mantle and join the Horde. It seems more like something that happened after that whole ‘destruction of their homeland, their source of life, and most of their people’. ‘Blood elf’ didn’t actively equal ‘Horde’ until after that whole Garithos business, if memory serves.
However, in all fairness to most of the Alliance, the first time they really heard of ‘sin’dorei’ was when they came back and joined with the Horde.
So, yeah, there’s some nuance there. Vanaelia, for example, doesn’t specifically object to being called either (though, honestly, she’s fine with ‘gorgeous elf’).
I think this is maybe oversimplifying things. Especially that last part. The destruction of Teldrassil is a completely valid, logical, and - frankly - acceptable reason for a night elf to be openly hostile to any Horde aligned race in Stormwind. There are still Darnassian refugees on the street. The attack was done on mostly civilians. And it was…what, two years ago in game time?
Also, we’re just off a major expansion based almost entirely on an open war between the two factions. This is not, I don’t know, Wrath where we were putting aside out differences* to stop one of the greatest threats the planet has ever known. This is “we were just at each other’s throats”.
As players, most of us should know that. It’s one thing if someone has RPed someone being neutral, or an ambassador, or whatever for a while, now. But just after the Fourth War? That’s…that kind of makes people question if someone is doing something in good faith. Because it seems like the kind of thing that people are doing specifically to just be disruptive.
Mind you, I’m not saying that’s their goal. But I am saying I can see how someone might suspect that. Especially when people (this is not directed at you, this is people in general) downplay any in character hesitation or hostility as the player having a problem, and not the character.
Full disclosure, I still want to RP as a man’ari eredar. I was hoping Lightforged could be shaman, because elemental would work with that. But I would go into it knowing full well that being met with sometimes open hostility is something I would need to be prepared for.
I’m just gonna go back and quote myself here:
My issue is less with characters who have legitimate anger and trauma in their IC history that would make them react badly to Horde characters, and more with people who have their character be a mouthpiece for their OOC views that someone playing a Horde character in Stormwind is somehow doing it wrong or is a bad roleplayer, through a thin veil of being “IC”. You can usually tell the difference between them when the person playing the Horde character is like ((Hey man I was just kind of looking to chill and play this scene with my friends, if that’s okay?)) and the Alliance characters want to continue the “debate” OOC and start complaining about “ICA = ICC” and how the Horde character should have to allow IC attacks and yelling OOC that there’s a Horde character in the tavern instead of just being like ((No problem, have a good night!)).
Unfortunately, in my experience, the salty OOC confrontation route is how I’ve seen it end up going maybe 95% of the time.
I fully get that people are entitled to the opinion that any member of the Horde would be 100% KOS in Stormwind, as seen above I have my opinions on why someone calling themselves a Sin’dorei in Alliance lands would probably be in for a bad time, and my character here would definitely snarl obnoxiously at any Orc she ran across even if they had “papers from the King” saying that they were a sweet harmless uwu bean who would never hurt anyone. But if said Orcbean was OOC like, hey, I just don’t want to do this tonight, I don’t have any place telling them how they should be playing. My character’s IC anger and disdain is hers IC, and if they’re not interested in playing out that dynamic, then I’ll move on - without snitty, backhanded OOC comments, even. It’s not my job to take it on myself to enforce my criticism on how someone plays their character if they’re not interested in the feedback, no matter what the lore says or what seems like it would be likely to me.
I definitely have characters who hide what they are. I have characters in my roster, from active to almost never played, who are secretly a Man’ari Eredar, a Kaldorei who disguised herself (poorly) as a Sin’dorei for years, and a still-mostly-evil Black Dragon. But my preference for keeping their secrets on the down-low, for the sake of my own sense of immersion and giving the character a “hook” to maintain my own interest in them, isn’t a rule that I feel like I need other people to conform to or they’re somehow doing RP “wrong”.
There is no “wrong” in RP. It’s all just people being impossible levels of nerd in an online game. There’s just people’s own personal preferences and takes on things, and if those preferences and personal takes conflict, the appropriate response is just to move on rather than starting a giant OOC brawl about what boils down to one person’s preference versus someone else’s preference.
Lets be fair about Horde defectors or ambassadors…
After EVERYTHING that has happened in Azeroth. the Alliance has earned no reason to respect or admire the Horde beyond the reluctant joining to fight a similar enemy. Every time there wasn’t a mutual enemy; the Alliance usually find themselves the target by the Horde. Whether purposefully or not; its enough to drive a wedge in trust.
Now, Battle for Azeroth cemented that the Alliance shouldn’t trust the Horde to honor anything. Twice they’ve been the disruption and chaotic force that destroyed homes and family. Theramore, Teldrassil, Southshore, Gilneas… The Alliance has been scorned so many times that they have every reason to not give the Horde an inch.
The Race you choose can entirely depict how you’ll be treated. Blood Elves and Pandaren will have the easiest time melding into Alliance rank or society due to the ambiguity and similar facets they share with their allies. Unless the target has a reputation; they can easily pass in with no real forced test of loyalty.
Now, persay you play as Zandalari Troll, orc, or undead. you will be heralded with great disgust, hostility, and distrust. You share the face of the enemy and all former attempts of peace with your race has always ended poorly… why should they give a second chance?
I can absolutely argue that. Eversong hasn’t ever been updated. It’s still trapped in the land of TBC, which was over 10 years ago. All the dialogue and all the quest text and lore you see there is ancient history. There is clear animosity between the sin’dorei and their quel’dorei kin, as evidenced several years later during the Zandalari influence upon the forest troll tribes in the Eastern Kingdoms.
The Scryers are unaffiliated with either Alliance or Horde, and many supporting the efforts of the Shattered Sun (a conglomerate of Aldor and Scryer efforts), which has, to my knowledge (I haven’t leveled up a Blood Elf since heritage armor was added mind), the island of Quel’Danas on lockdown and refuse entry to anyone.
The Scryers do not roam Stormwind.
Those connections were severed irrevocably by the subterfuge of Garrosh Hellscream several years later in MoP, and the subsequent purging of Dalaran of Sunreaver presence. Even in Wrath their presence was an uneasy one for the existing Silver Covenant, given that longstanding animosity between the two subsets of high elven heritage, and with the seeming betrayal of trust by the Sunreavers the Silver Covenant eagerly assisted in purging the sin’dorei presence from Dalaran. This galvanized the sin’dorei as allies to the Horde, rather than seeing to repair bridges in secret with Varian Wrynn. Many surviving Sunreavers still rightfully view Jaina’s actions as monstrous (even though she was entirely justified in her actions) and attempted to take her life during the events of BfA.
The Sunreavers do not roam Stormwind.
What benefits Quel’thalas benefits the Horde. The Reliquary abscond with precious artifacts and actively will fight against the Explorer’s League for possession of these relics. While true that perhaps it might not be fully in the Horde’s interest (as it’s more a point of personal pride for the Reliquary, believing many of these artifacts as their rightful possessions), there would be plenty of stories that hit the Alliance homefront of the monstrous behavior of ‘innocent’ prospectors being callously slaughtered by sin’dorei agents.
The Reliquary do not roam Stormwind.
The Shadow is different than the Void by a huge margin, just for reference.
It is not a question of “liking the Horde” in this case either. Umbric and his devotees wanted to delve into research into the Void and it’s use to actively aid in the defense of Quel’thalas and their allies. Lor’themar rightfully banished them because the last time this happened, Quel’thalas nearly fell due to the encroaching Scourge and their own falling to the addictive power of Necromancy. The Void, as we saw, readily consumed and began to warp the minds and bodies of Umbric and his devotees because they were wholly unprepared to speak those unspeakable, eldritch words. Ren’dorei are in allegiance with the Alliance NOT because the Alliance came to save them, but Alleria came to pull them from the brink. Many look down upon Stormwind’s “quaint, rustic air” and shun their allies from casual conversation, as we have seen in Stormwind from it’s various NPCs. Their’s is an allegiance of convenience, but now that they are here Umbric at least wishes to prove the worth of his devotees and steer them to the cause of the Alliance, lest we too rightfully banish them for tapping into sheer madness.
The race as a whole is loyal to the Horde. When the chips were down on the table, it was the Horde who came to their aid, not the Alliance. Truly, when Quel’thalas broke, it was due to the actions of a human prince, and the leader of the sin’dorei along with the rest of his people were belittled and subject to severe discrimination by another human, being used as fodder rather than any genuine purpose.
There are singular reasons for why a blood elven defector might exist. I’m not discouraging that. I am simply saying that the OP should be prepared for the sharpest of inclines for an uphill battle.
And Valeera is not a defector. She simply holds no loyalties, save for the friendship of Broll “Blizzard Forgets I Exist Sometimes” Bearmantle and Varian, and to that of the Uncrowned (and even then that in of itself can be argued).
Child Roleplayers.
Why would they?
You seem to think that there are only two options: Horde, or Alliance. There isn’t. I didn’t bring up different groups because they’d rather be Alliance, I brought them up as evidence that one way or another, they do not want to work with the Horde to the point most such groups would sooner break away from Quel’Thalas altogether and involve themselves with other pursuits.
By, “many,” I think you mean, “one.” I only saw Hathorel in BFA actively working to seek revenge against Jaina.
Likewise, it’s probably important to note that despite what happened the Sunreavers still ended up selling Felo’melorn to the Kirin Tor to regain entry into the city.
Only in the most peripheral sense.
For example, one of the Reliquary’s stated goals is to find a cure to the magical addiction of the Sin’dorei, rather than just let the Sunwell sate it. Such a cure would have no practical benefit to the rest of the Horde, and ONLY benefit the Blood Elves. The only way the Horde benefits from this is in the Blood Elves losing that weakness should the Sunwell be destroyed again. It does nothing for the average Orc or Troll in Orgrimmar, and that sums up the Reliquary’s work in a nutshell.
They’re the same thing.
https://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screenshots/normal/944052.jpg
I can’t say I’ve seen this. Actually, I’ve seen the opposite, where you can find a High Elf Sorceress and a Void Elf walking along in the Mage Quarter, a Void Elf studying magic alongside a Worgen, Gnome, etc… in the Tower itself. There was only one case I can think of Void Elves snubbing anyone talking to them, and they have the same line for Void Elf players, so it really has nothing to do with the inhabitants of Stormwind so much as elves as snobs.
There has never been a more fragmented race in the history of this franchise than the Thalassian Race. You’ve got two separate groups that broke off to become neutral, you’ve got another two that broke off and are a part of the Alliance, etc… That’s not even counting the countless individuals who have left Quel’Thalas to join neutral factions like the Argent Crusade.
The race as a whole is not loyal to the Horde, not by a long shot, and the fact that we’re still seeing more and more groups breaking away from Quel’Thalas over time, and continuing to say they don’t like the Horde, is a pretty good indicator that its not the case.
Funnily enough, it’s the Alliance which canonically has credit for saving the Sunwell for the Blood Elves, as per the Chronicles. I’m not sure anything the Horde has ever done for the Blood Elves can compare to that. After all, the Blood Elves weren’t even accepted into the Horde until AFTER they’d dealt with the Scourge threat in the Ghostlands to prove they wouldn’t be a burden on the Horde to begin with.
I don’t disagree here. Turning traitor is not an easy road to walk.
I never said she was. I simply stated she works for the Alliance (specifically the House of Wrynn but that’s still a part of the Alliance), and she identifies as a Blood Elf. It was more a commentary on the fact one could arguably be a Blood Elf and still work with the Alliance without technically changing to a High Elf.
I mean. Yeah, children are often (but not always, I’m sure) played in an inaccurate and cringey manner. I’m not personally a fan. But I don’t see it as my job to walk up to someone and read them the riot act OOC about how they’re supposed to be ten but they’re acting like they’re five and they’re obviously walking straight into a bar and up to every harsh, evil character they can in the hopes that they’ll be corrupted, abused, or need to have everyone around them drop everything and rescue them.
I think it, in my head, and I…let’s say it again…move on with my night. Their choice to do that is theirs, and my choice is to just to not engage and do something else with my time.
I get where you’re coming from. It’s just…I guess the phrasing. It makes it sound like the member of their respective faction is somehow at fault or unenlightened because they take umbrage to a member of the other faction being in their city. It’s not so much that things suddenly show up, it’s that there was never any reason to actually address them before.
Two orcs talking about if the rains are going to come this year for their crops, and one of them telling the other about how he was wrong about it last year, and him telling her that she needs to stop bring up old stuff, and her telling him that she didn’t mention his mother, and him telling her that that was getting tired, and her telling him so is his mother? That’s their own thing, and they aren’t even thinking about humans.
Until Johnny Defector pops in.
That’s the thing, I think. If you roleplay as one of the other species? You’re literally steering the conversation in that direction. It has nothing to do with being a bad roleplayer, or being wrong about something. That is something that happened because a player made a decision.
Let’s take that above thing. Orcs chatting. Human walks in, as in-character a human. They say something to him, also in character. Human says (Hey, I just want to do this scene). Fine. Let’s say that happens. Then a troll else walks in, sees a human in the bar. They ask why the humans in the bar. Human wants to do the scene. They find it interesting, ask to join. They do. Cool. But now the earlier orcs - who are ignoring the human - also have to ignore the troll who is not ignoring the human. Which is all well and good, except they know that troll. They have interacted with them. They plan to interact with him again. And they know have to either pretend that this human-troll interaction didn’t happen, or find some way to address it without also addressing the fact that they were in the tavern when it happened.
Now, the goblin bartender doesn’t care, since the human’s got gold. But if he says something to the orcs? The orcs now have to respond in such a manner that it also avoids mention of both the human and the troll, which also means if the bartender says something like “I can’t see you, you’re behind those two”, the orcs are like “what two”, because the bartender can see them, but the orcs can’t. Then, someone else comes in, sees the human and troll. Sees the bartender interacting, and assumes “Oh, okay, this human is in character, so I can react in character”. Responds like…oh, I don’t know, a Forsaken does. Is told that the human is only looking to play out a scene, which has now become a whole thing. The Forsaken was supposed to meet the troll, but now can’t actually talk to the troll because the troll is RPing with people who the Forsaken can’t RP with because they wouldn’t be able to actually act in character, so they also can’t acknowledge the troll talking to no one–
The situation builds on itself, especially if it’s something in a public venue. It begs the question “If you don’t want public interaction, why are you doing this in a public area?” It ends up forcing the public to deal with a situation.
Look. If you decide you’re roleplaying in public, then you have to accept that certain things come with that. In part because cities are also populated by NPCs. Saying this orc or this human is openly in this bar is also saying that these human/orc NPCs are okay with the member of the other faction in the bar. The guards are okay with them walking around.
I want to be clear here that I AM FINE WITH PEOPLE RPING AS OTHER THINGS. Orcs in Stormwind, Humans in Orgrimmar, anybody in the Exodar, that’s all good. But you have to accept that if you are doing this, you are the one that is going against the grain. And it doesn’t seem fair to both accept that you are doing something out of the ordinary and then blame other people for having a reaction to that.
I’m not saying that you are doing it in bad faith. But I would be lying if I said I haven’t seen people do that, recently, in bad faith. Mostly so they can jump up with “You’re being racist” because a dwarf or night elf isn’t okay with an orc or a troll in an Alliance city.
And, yeah. It’s…weird, with elves.