You know, that’s starting to sound more like an excuse for her to commit heinous acts than a defining act of heroism in her career.
And it’s cute how you call Thrall a quitter while stating this because he too had to give up everything he knew to save not only what he loved, but the entire planet.
Gilneas can absolutely be justified as military reprimand. They walled themselves off from the rest of the world, withdrew from the Alliance and when Lordaeron needed its help in its most critical hour, they turned survivors away at the gate, so they died, as a result.
There’s ample room for those who came back to hold resentment for treason. Even Varian, initially, held them to account when they came back into the fold of the Alliance.
As for who says who’s right and who’s wrong- the attacking army does. They don’t have to sell it to the enemy they’re attacking because they’re already at the point of escalation, they have to sell it to themselves. If looking at it legally, like Lordaeron law, it is treason. If looking at it any other way, these were the same people that left them to die and there’s believable room for the Forsaken to want to set the score.
Gilneas being a functioning port may be Garrosh’s only interest, but Gilneas has done plenty to warrant a military response. It’s not as if they’re entirely blameless, in the great span of history.
And there was faction peace too after the defeat of the Legion. Sylvanas then chose to break that peace by sabotaging the summit that Anduin tried to hold at Arathi that was an attempt to ease tensions between the Humans and Undead, then choosing to kickstart the War of the Thorns. Not only that but we do look into the mindset of Sylvanas when it comes to ideals of peace with the Alliance. She has none for it, she just looks for opportunities she can find that would entail dismantling the faction and keeping her own on top. It would not be mistaken to think she never had ideals of peace with them even before Genn did anything against her.
You want us to get over Gilneas and attempted genocide of its people and the death of its future heir? Alright then, fair enough, then get over Stormheim as well because it’s become a tired argument at this point.
All these things you lobby at blue posters could apply just as easily to red posters as well, particularly ones that post on elf avatars, so it’s not just strictly an issue of how Alliance players act on here. It is just a consequence of faction partisanship that is readily apparent on both sides here.
Anyway, I do not feel this applies to me as I think there is some level of wrong on Genn’s part too, Jaina as well, but I think that makes them legitimate grey characters and not morally pitch black villain protagonist characters like so many Blood Elf players like to lobby them as being.
gilneas abandoned the alliance for a very good reason. and they keep the walls closed for another good one.
There was literally a zombie outbreak so with the little information they had, it would be okay to risk to get their entirely population be infected and turned into zombies instead?
Gilneas was true neutral. the attack on it was completely unprovoked.
Yes!
Yes it is!
It’d be the same if the Centaurs rode on the Tauren, or any of the Orcs enemies attacked them. It’s an obligation to respond in kind.
He didn’t bomb her fleet with the intent of thwarting her efforts against the Val’kyr. He got fed a bunch of hooey by SI:7 when they were given the runaround by the Legion and his first course of action was to bomb her. While the answer may matter to the Alliance, it’s still the matter of fact that he bombed the Warchief’s fleet and attempted to take her out. They fired the first shot, that’s grounds for war.
That was also 20 years ago before Cataclysm. Again, what right do Forsaken have to militarily reprimand Gilneas when their leader was the Ranger General of Quel’thalas who also abandoned the Alliance after WC2? Have the Forsaken militarily reprimanded the Blood elves? Have they asked for restitution? You’re forgetting that while the whole Scourge thing was happening Gilneas was dealing with its own apocalypse. Worgen were rampaging the countryside and killing/infecting everyone and it wasn’t until several years later when the Night elves showed up that it changed. Gilneas was not capable of helping.
Now, the Forsaken wouldn’t know that. So I would expect the average Forsaken to hold some kind of grudge against Gilneas. But that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about you, and how you worded your post.
They can hold all the resentment they want. From the Forsaken’s perspective that can make sense, just like it would make sense for a Forsaken to be mad at the elves. What doesn’t make sense is you framing it in such a way as to say Gilneas deserved to have its people tortured and killed for something that happened 2 decades ago.
Like, you didn’t say “Genn was mad about Sylvanas invading his homeland and killing his people”, you said that he was mad about being retaliated against for leaving the Alliance before the Scourge outbreak, thus absolving Sylvanas and the Forsaken of any sort of agency in this situation.
Treason is still treason, if the legality is important.
Breaking quarantine, from the viewpoint of the reader, is probably a bad idea, though from the viewpoint of the characters, these people were desperate and needed safe haven when everywhere else in their world had gone mad. Undeath is hell and breeds ire from what transpired.
Gilneas as a government was no neutral party. The people who got caught in the crossfire were, but the government, by no means.
Mak’gora
Be it issued by Baine, Saurfang, or Lor’themar, and without further involvement from the Alliance, it would settle the issue. What could’ve been is irrelevant because it didn’t happen, and I don’t think they have many other options left to be proactive about it now.
I am confused. Genn clearly attacked in retaliation to the Gilneas invasion, death of his son, and the betrayal (perceived) of Varian at Broken Shore. It wasn’t until he learned of her plans to enslave Eyir (not that specifically but generally) that it became a priority.
I am pointing out no one is condemning Sylvanas for her actions in Stormhiem when she did the same stuff Genn did.
Was there official peace? Seems to me the whole summit was an attempt at smoothing over the harsh feelings because there was no peace. Anduin also didn’t bother to vet his group and brought a rival claimant to Sylvanas’ throne/ sister to the man who murdered her. That seems pretty incendiary to peace talks as well.
You don’t have to get over anything. If Genn still wanted to kill Sylvanas for Gilneas he should have refused peace or waited until the Legion was defeated and then removed himself from the peace pact if he wanted to keep the moral high ground.
If this is true then they need to do better as well.
Let’s not go there my friend, there is plenty of material I could drum up on Death Knight posters 
I wasn’t accusing you, I was throwing it out there since I’ve run into this kind of thing quite a few times. For what it’s worth, I don’t think Genn or Jaina are evil people either. I think they have done bad things, but as you say, that’s what makes them interesting characters as opposed to characters like Anduin who do no wrong.
And yet this is not reflected else where in the game, say Night Elves being raised into Undeath. They are literally joining the ones who murdered them and them attacking their own along side the ones who murdered them.
Amalia Stone does the same thing (Assuming she wasn’t actually converted to the Scourge as her tabard implies). She joins the very ones that killed her and her troops.
These aren’t cases like that of Thomas Zelling who choose that path.
It is also interesting that the one character who choose undeath is the one to turn against Sylvanas.
Wait, you think that gilneas commited treason… agaisnt who?
Are you suggesting that these people are justified to attack gilneas simply because they keep their gates closed?
What are you even talking about, gilneas had nothing to do with the people of lordaeron.
In legality? By being joined by an Alliance. Severance and sealing themselves off from the world. If it depended entirely on the rule of law in the Alliance, retaliation is fair game.
As for Quel’thalas, around the time their presence became critical, it was too late a la Arthas and the Scourge. Stratholme had already been purged, Lordaeron had all but fallen and Quel’thalas was doomed. It was also by Sylvanas’ efforts that the Forsaken became an entity, by leading and commanding their resources in their quest to survive and thrive. They didn’t really have any reason to ask them for reparations. What was wrong was made up for by Sylvanas, and to Quel’thalas’ credit, they aided them in their battle against the Scourge once they were rallied by Sunstrider.
Gilneas did no such thing, on the other hand. Between the severance from the Alliance and not doing the most basic act of empathy (with reasons not entirely known to the outside world) during Lordaeron’s harshest times, they had every ground to stand on to reprimand Gilneas for it.
To Genn Greymane, Gilneas was invaded. To the Forsaken, two decades’ worth of insult and treachery was answered in military action.
Perhaps overmuch, given how indiscriminate the blight is and how it salted the city, but the basis of waging war against Gilneas itself isn’t entirely unprovoked, Genn is not free of blame.
Those would’ve been very fitting motives for him (and he did use them as motives, during the fight over the spooky ghost lantern). It would’ve also, finally, put dirt on the Alliance by making Genn defy Anduin’s orders to open fire, though the Rogue artifact questline details SI:7 getting the wool pulled over their eyes, thus giving him the thought that the Horde had meant to cause harm and absolving him of his blame in the grand story.
In truth, though, Sylvanas hadn’t really done anything to the Alliance to warrant an attack amidst a ceasefire while an infinite army rained hellfire on the planet. That’s the point of contest. They fired first and their attempt was on the Warchief, of all people.
Saurfang should have issued the challenge from the beginning. The moment he felt “There is no Honor in this!” if not sooner.
He might have lost and died vs Sylvanas, but at least it would have counted as a conscious effort to stop this nonsense.
The Alliance of Lordaeron.
To them, yes! They were in a world of (profanity) and their last hope was Gilneas. Gilneas turned them away. These people died as a result and have all the reason in the world to hate them for it. It wasn’t enough to just break off from the Alliance, they had to deny them aid in their most dire time. The basis for waging war was certainly justified on paper.
Gilneas, as a government, had everything to do with the Alliance of Lordaeron and could easily be held to blame for the shutting of the gates while survivors of Lordaeron’s fall fled to it.
Like in most conflicts, both sides have very valid reasons to do what they do and perceive it as right. Compelling conflict lets neither side think they’re the bad guy and that their actions are justified.
Gilneas had the Worgen dilemma on their side of the wall, the Lordaeron had the Cult of the Damned dilemma on their side, and both are critical in observing how both sides feel themselves vindicated in their actions.
I’m all for revolutionary defeatism, take me to court on that. However I don’t see a favorable outcome, long term or short term, for swapping sides from liking/supporting Sylvanas to Saurfang in this current narrative. I don’t have faith for Blizzard to create a narrative to make that an interesting and acceptable outcome.
What would it take for me to jump over though? A lot.
The Forsaken would need to have a clear leader, or core of leaders, that would be new face of the Forsaken. Those who’ve seen me post before know my love for Farranel, Hecular, Belmont, Black Bride, and others. Someone who was speaking out against Sylvanas for one reason or another though mainly around the narrative that this meat grinder of a war was depleting their resources and collapse was imminent. That if the war continued at this pace, they’d never even be able to reclaim Lordearon. These are leaders who want to see the survival of the Forsaken continue, to avoid damnation, and to lay claim to all of Lordearon proper. They are not pacifists, they do not want to hide, they are not returning to dilapidated buildings and perhaps even Undercity as we know it. They do know however that victory, for whatever reason, in this war of attrition is unobtainable and because of Sylvanas’ single mindedness, she has to go. Dead, Northrend, Hellhiem, whatever.
Suarfang’s side needs to drop their current honor bit. It is hallow, done more harm than good, is inconsistent, and is orc centric. Baine must be replaced by someone who cares about the survival and future growth of the tauren as a people and the strength of the Horde. Similar to the Forsaken though clearly not as cold blooded or objectively dark. Dead, in Highmountain, Earthen Ring, Druids, dont care where Baine goes just not back to the tent of Thunder Bluff. Jevan, Aponi, Ragetotem, anyone. Same with Thrall since he’s back in the picture for whatever reason. I think Suarfang’s time has come. He needs to go similar to others but I’d prefer death in this instance. He’s old, he’s almost asking for it already. Let him go down swinging with Miev, Genn, Jaina or someone in saving his rebellion forces, preferably saved by the “loyalists.” Zappieboi… let him go the way of Zenkiki.
The neutrals, ie: Lor’themar, Thalyssra, Mayla, Rokhan, etc need recognize the inner collapse of the war effort as a material danger rather than through some altruistic moral standing. None need to leave, all just need to come to that same understanding and support the Forsaken’s belief in themselves as an independent people and core member of the Horde while seeing the blatant shortcomings in Saurfang’s honor.
Lastly the Alliance needs to be on a similar brink of collapse. Im talking a very WWI ending to this all. This isnt to kick you Alliance reading this while you’re down, but to give a good reasoning as to why you can’t simply steam roll through our inner turmoil for SoO 2: Electric Boogaloo. Your farmers are already being called up to fight, this is very real concern for the Alliance.
Its a clean break here. Not everyone will be happy, but I think this is the best we can do. There needs to be a lot, a lot, of narrative work done that will never be covered, but this is what is personally required for me to jump ship from Sylvanas to the rebellion.
What did Eyir do to warrant an attack while an infinite army rained hellfire on the planet?
The only difference between Sylvanas and Genn actions in Stormhiem is Sylvanas’ target was Eyir and Genn’s target was Sylvanas. Sylvanas is guilty of the exact same thing Genn was.
There had been a ceasing of hostility between the two factions at the very least, so to some extent yes but not completely. Then again, even after MoP there was not complete peace either and both factions were fighting each other over artifacts in WoD as well, with the full backing of their respective supreme leaders in fact.
It was to prevent a potential war from happening again. (Which would have happened anyway since Sylvanas only agreed to it in the hopes of getting close to Anduin so she could betray him and take over Stormwind.)
Actually, what more people should be doing is calling that event for exactly what it was, which was objectively bad writing that served to showcase how MoP failed to address all the important plot points that were set up in the expansion before it, and that in any other work of fiction with coherent and consistent writing, someone like Genn would never agree to sign a treaty so long as it entailed the person who destroyed his future lineage, wiped out a good portion of his people, and attempted to turn his homeland into an uninhabitable wasteland would get away scott free, but because the writers don’t care for consistency in their writing, stating that everything is all according to “gameplay first and then story” then that entails a direct out-of-character moment for someone like Genn, who logically never would agree to something like that.
It’s the kind of writing that turns me apathetic about the story, the kind of writing that makes me unsurprised about the prospect that Sylvanas could actually get away with Teldrassil too and that those Shadowlands leaks wouldn’t surprise me if they were real. Because the writing has just gone that much downhill due to their personal desire to favor the gameplay and only treat the story as a secondary or tertiary side thing that’s only there to service the gameplay no matter how illogical and trashy the writing has to be to service it.
Forgive me if I was wrong in assuming you would tell me to get over it, but when anyone ever brings it up as a legitimate argument, my mind immediately just goes to that, because it seems like it’s argued in a way that it’s somehow acceptable writing.
If he had done that, Sylvanas would have already had a massive army of endless val’kyr at her side and her bargain with Helya would be fulfilled. At that point there’s nothing Genn can do about it because Sylvanas would have successfully achieved something close to godhood at that point, convenient for anyone who sides with her because now she would just get away with everything by sheer power alone.
And I dare say I doubt she would even have the kindness to allow Genn’s people to at least stay in their homeland, kindness is not even a word Sylvanas understands at all.
So if Genn has to sacrifice some moral highground to prevent all of that from happening? So be it then, because if he chooses the moral highground then at that point he chooses to be another flavor of Stupid Good character and his people would still be living with rags underneath a tree. (Not that I even agree that Genn lost any moral highground, he got situational vindication at the end of Stormheim.)
It’s literally a “damned if you do or don’t” situation, and I’d rather him look bad from the perspective of the Horde than to ever make decisions that might make the Alliance leery of him but ultimately prove to be for their well-being.
Surely, but I am a Worgen stan above everything else so that would be meh to me.
What almost all the Horde responses boil down to is something like “We don’t actually know what the heck any of our “leaders” are doing, so why should we support any of them?”
Which is a function of the story increasingly being about the NPCs doing stuff and the PCs being treated as a passive audience.
I kinda feel like most Alliance complaints about their story boil down to the same thing.