Literally fighting back is too aggressive for Anduin’s tastes. He is such a pathetic little worm it drives me nuts. I absolutely hate Anduin.
A divide in the Alliance? How about the one that is already there? Stormwind has betrayed the Kaldorei, and then used our Sentinels as cannon fodder for their stupid attack in Zandalar. The Kaldorei and Worgen shouldn’t even be in the Alliance at this point. It’s pretty clear Anduin doesn’t care about us.
I don’t dislike Anduin, but he’s not a wartime king. He’s far too focused on the peace afterwards and not crushing the enemy now. Sylvanas is not the only problem.
Saurfang could have answered for what ge did and now if the Alliance wins only one of the guilty parties might face justice, and knowing Sylvanas or won’t happen.
You’re suggesting that the only Horde leader that felt guilty enough to attempt to seek a way out through suicide through combat (and the only battle commander at Teldrassil who actively attempted to stop the bombardment of the tree) won’t allow himself to face justice once Sylvie is dealt with? Hell, I’m not even convinced the Old Man is going to survive BfA with how many Grom, Doomhammer, and Brox parallels he’s currently sporting atm. Which … sucks…
Also, as much as I agree with Tyrande’s choice to prioritize opening up a Darkshore front (it is for her people’s needs), I do also sort of agree that her decision to do so when the Alliance IS stretched rather thin sort of invalidates her as a potential replacement for Anduin as a Grand General of the Joint-Alliance forces. Regardless of the outcome in Darkshore (and as much as she, the leader of the Kaldorei was right to do it), she prioritized the needs of a single Alliance race over the needs of the entire Alliance War effort. That Fact remains unchanged even though it turned out well.
Honestly, of the available experienced Leaders of the Alliance … Muradin is probably the best choice (if only his concern and mistrust of Moira and the political instability still lingering around the Dwarven people’s wasn’t getting in the way of him taking over).
Uh, no. There are only a handful of Kaldorei Dark Rangers at BEST, and it’s quite likely that many if not all of them are killed by their former kin when the Kaldorei counterattack at Darkshore hit. And you did not “steal” Delaryn and Sira. They turned their backs on Elune, cursed her, and accepted undeath out of spite, not out of allegiance to the Undead. If you think for even a moment that either of them are your friends, then I’m sorry but you are an idiot.
And Anduin cannot “force” the Kaldorei to accept peace. The Kaldorei are a sovereign people that he has zero authority over and the bulk of whom probably no longer have any faith in his leadership of the Alliance, and rightfully so. All that said, yeah I would love to see an Alliance unafraid to do some seriously dark stuff. I’ve truly had enough of the moral high ground, it’s time to take the gloves off and fight the Horde on their terms.
What would cause the Alliance to split?
A five-second window in which Kaldorei players are given the option to defect to their own third party faction.
Well, tbh, we don’t really have anyway of knowing exactly what is happening in Ashenvale atm. Not to sound grim, but despite there being remaining Kaldorei guerrilla fighters in that region … it is also closer to the Horde seat of power. Not saying I want this to be the case, but suggesting that there aren’t resurrections NE occurring within that area is probably wishful thinking…
As awful as it sounds, those dead Night Elves are probably considered viable resources for Sylvanas. I doubt she’d squander them simply on principle.
I don’t know how the rest feel as it hasn’t been covered but I was only referring to Sylvanas and Saurfang as those two are responsible for it. Besides that, the orcs needs a leader and he’s the the choice unless Thrall comes back. I just don’t see them heading over someone like Saurfang.
She couldn’t let them become entrenched in Darkshore so get move was right and she still had a sizable force to do so. I doubt she’s take a leadership position, she’d focus on her people first. Replacing him would put too much on her plate while also rebuilding.
Intresting choice or Turalyon, especially with Tyrande sitting out and Genn being focused on counciling Anduin.
As it stands the only thing that could cause the Alliance to fracture would be something that is very much Horde focused. Example would be Side A wants to purge, and Side B wants to forgive.
Honestly, I’d rather not have a faction splitting up and being at each others throats and instead have the Alliance present two very opposing faces.
BfA ends with some stupidness and when the two factions stand at the opposite sides of the table, Anduin gives the Horde this ultimatum, join the Alliance and together we can bring real, lasting peace to Azeroth. Or face the wrath of the Night Warrior.
For players the narrative would then how, if possible, do you reconcile these very obviously opposing stances. How can the Alliance as a whole be offering the Horde peace should they submit, but threaten them with a never ending war if they refuse.
Something, like that instead of “X side is mad at Y.”
Oh, don’t misunderstand. I don’t disagree in the slightest. As bitter as I am that after like several months the Horde wasn’t more entrenched in that region than it was (I blame Gallywix’s habit of inefficiency to skim profit off the top for that, and that’s more a MY chosen PCs races problem than anything). What Tyrande did was good for the Kaldorei people, and while I don’t necissarily disagree with Anduin either … she should never be admonished for that choice.
Hmm … my only fear with Turalyon is the same concern I have with Alleria. They’re out of the loop, VERY out of the loop. He’s been gone, trapped on several other worlds, since the Second War. The Alliance of Lordaeron was still a thing when he left; and the current Horde system certainly didn’t exist back then. He’s an accomplished battle commander sure, but his extreme specialty is dealing with Legion Forces and Tactics … and his proficiency against the Horde (or its leaders) is likely extremely lacking.
Muradin in contrast has been active in a lot of the last 15 years worth of events. He’s an accomplished battle commander in his own right with a firmer grasp on the political climate; tactics; and races of the Alliance’s current enemy. Bluntly, if he wasn’t so paranoid about Moira … he’d probably be a pretty great choice over Anduin (who is fine as the King of SW, but WAY to inexperienced to be leading a WW).
The most organic method to create a division within the Alliance is by pitting those who have lost everything to the Horde, against those who haven’t. So, yes, Night Elves and Worgen, both having lost their homes and peoples, would be the likely ones to separate from the Alliance.
Yeah, but would they separate together … or independently? I get that they’re close to the Kaldorei (and owe them a lot), but the Worgen’s home (the one they still desperately wish to reclaim) is on Eastern Kingdoms (not Kalimdor). Like it or not, this either puts in them in the position of potentially never getting their own homes back to fully support the Kaldorei; or places them on a continent, surrounded by the Alliance Faction, after they had arbitrarily left said faction.
Plus, you really think Genn would abandon Anduin? The dude has sort of hard-core made him a surrogate for Liam more and more lately. Hell, he even suggested his daughters hand in marriage as a possibility for Anduin. “Maybe” I could see Tess doing it, if the worst should happen and Genn dies due to some mistake of Anduins; but that’s a pretty hypothetical topic to discuss.
Depends I think. A split in the Alliance could serve a gameplay purpose. If the Alliance and Horde are really going to control a single continent each, the easiest way to make that work without outright destroying some races in the process, is for those races to leave their faction.
So, if Worgen and Night Elves left the Alliance and became neutral, the Worgen can not only continue to support the Night Elves, but also reclaim Gilneas. No doubt you’d find the more feral worgen such as Ivar, supporting the Night Elves, while Genn and worgen who still identify more strongly as Gilneans, return to Gilneas.
Lets be very clear here … with the Kaldorei’s tendencies (and the massive horrors and losses they’ve suffered recently) they are far, FAR more likely to become more insular and succumb to Elven isolationist tendencies if they get their lands back (and become a neutral group again). The idea that they’d have the power to not only field a force (but would be willing to redistribute deeply important resources in their own rebuilding process) to help the Gilneans retake (and rebuild) Gilneas is … I think … rather wishful thinking (at least in the foreseeable future).
Not to mention, Genn has come to truly regret his decision to abandon the Alliance of Lordaeron (and its people) when it needed him most. His loyalty to Varian took a long time to reach, and was hard earned on Varian’s trust in him. The idea that Genn would abandon Varian’s son when that son needed him most (and after Varian sacrificed himself the way that he did) … seems unlikely. Like I said, ANYTHING could happen with the Gilneans if Genn were to die; and Tess were to replace him … but for now (as long as Genn is in charge), I really doubt it.
I was just restating what you said, we agreement on all of this.
Fair point.
Which is why I think I’d would be interesting to see.
Which reminds me I need to read up on their issues, I don’t know much about them. Although technically she is next in line for ironforge and her son through marriage with a Wildhammer will rule all dwarves. But like I said my knowledge on that lore is lacking.
As for Anduin, she should have appointed someone to lead the forces after Teldrassil. Even if he’s being counseled his decisions are final and said decisions haven’t been formed by his own experience. He should be ruling SW and checking on the current well being in the nation’s while another is leading the fight in his or the Alliance’s name.
I highly doubt Ashenvale is as secure as they would like and Sylvanas is probably keeping those last 3 Val’kyr close. Also it might just be headcannon but I think there is a difference between those NE that died in Darkshore and shivtar that died on Ashenvale. The burning of the tree had a significant effect on those that saw it and passed. The Ashenvale victims didn’t live to see that so I doubt they would answer the call.
It’s also possible that Tyrande is there killing orcs left and right. She left Maiev in charge on the warfront while she went to “saite Night Warrior’s wrath”. We haven’t seen her since so it’s possible she’s there further disrupting the supply lines and taking back the forest.
I never suggested that the Night Elves would help reclaim Gilneas. That said, I don’t see them going back to Isolationist tendencies. They know how that’ll work out for them. If anything I’d see Night Elves going neutral as being more proactive than ever.
I disagree with this. You’re forgetting that Genn Greymane is a King first and foremost and will do what is best for his people, first and foremost. While he views Anduin as a son, he is still a King. I think once Anduin comes into his own as King of Stormwind, Genn wouldn’t have much issue withdrawing officially from the Alliance and continuing to support it from a neutral capacity.
I think this thread brings up a clear divide between players.
and
Are Tyrande and Genn selfish for putting their own nation’s needs above other nations? Is it okay for RL countries to put their own needs above NATO’s? There’s been a lot of confrontation lately on certain countries not “meeting their dues” expected of NATO members. For example, only 5 nations in Europe meet the 2.5% GPD spent on defense quota asked by the organization. There’s also Brexit, where the nation has spoken through a vote to separate and the leadership is trying to stall actually splitting from the EU.
Perhaps this needs a separate thread.
No they are not, especially the Night Elves.
I think that most people are putting Genn in Tyrande’s side is a kind of wish fulfillment so if they Kaldorei do leave they aren’t alone. Someone pointed out to me in a thread a while ago that while the NE are allies and friends with the other nations, until the Gilneans there were not any really close relationships. Quite frankly the humans are the closest with the others than they are with each other save for the dwarves and gnomes.
Truth be told if they step out they would probably step out alone, but still maintain that relationship with Gilneans. Close inner faction relationships between the nations is something that the horde may have a better handle on. The horde was built on the relationship between orcs, tauren, and trolls. While the undead may be the outlier they brought in the BE, who due to Sylvanas, are at least close to the Forsaken diplomatically. Now the BE have the Nightborne, the tauren have highmountian, the trolls the Zandalar, the orcs have the mag’har, and now the forsaken are in the leadership position.
With the Alliance you have the light forged with the regular Dreanei but they are lead by a human so once again that connections them to SW like the regular Dreanei are connected with SW because of faith. The Dark Iron with Ironforde, which has a close realtionship with SW. The VE may be another outlier but Allera is married to Turalyon and has no problem serving Anduin so again another connection to SW with out needed one to the other nations.
There is just a lack of connectivity on the alliance side. So if the Alliance does fracture, I don’t see anyone leaving with the Kaldorei and would be 1 split. But I would hope Anduin would realize the ramifications of that for both him and the Alliance. It would leave the Alliance with zero major or minor bases in Kailmdor outside of that one Alliance base in Desolace. Also as the house of nobles are not to sure about him yet, I doubt they’d take kindly to that.
P.S I should mention my views on the horde side are pre bfa craziness.
Its already long established that Blizzard doesn’t like writing for the Alliance. Even worse given their explanation that “its boring to write Lawful Good.” So good luck seeing anything but lawful stupid overdrive.
The death of Anduin might cause a fracture.
Especially if he splits open like an egg.
Very easily.
What if Sylvanas offers peace with the current status quo?
Anduin accepts because he hates war.
Tyrande flips out because night elves are left with nothing and split off. Genn and Jaina may or may not abide.