They just seem so lackluster, especially in the combat department where their damage and survivability just seems subpar. I think the root of the issue is that everything they do is purely physical which just makes them fodder for plate classes. Hell, even evokers get 70%+ additional armor just for existing.
4 Likes
I’d go with either 1 or couple of these changes to make Outlaw better in PvP. Keep in mind this is my opinion as someone who usually fight others 1 on 1, sometimes queuing into the arena.
The first thing I would do is revert the PvP Multiplier on Wound Poison so that we reduce healing by 40%. It takes Outlaw forever to kill their target assuming the healers from both parties are equally skilled. If Sin is causing issues by having too much Healing Reduction, I’d recommend pruning Sin’s kit instead of nerfing the overall class (sorry for all you sin lads but y’all have a lot of free stuff Sub and Law doesn’t).
Feint off the GCD. This is a 2-way buff for damage and survivability. Should be self-explanatory how big removing something off the GCD is for Outlaw to allow for a more seamless rotation. It may be expensive energy-wise but it is a buff.
PvP Talent changes for Control is King, Boarding Party, Maneuverability, and Thick as Thieves. These talents aren’t inherently bad, they’re just too niche or out of date. Control is King’s 1st half of the talent “Cheap Shot grants Slice and Dice for 15 seconds” has been redundant with the recent changes to Outlaw that allows us to refresh Slice and Dice by simply pressing Dispatch. I’d change the effect to provide something else to probably be reduction in CC or Root durations, but I’m personally biased in this way and there’s probably a better alternative. Maneuverability kind of does nothing and Outlaw struggles against classes that slows it significantly. Thick as Thieves doesn’t work with So Tricky from the Trickster side of the tree. I’d change Thick as Thieves’ interaction with So Tricky so they work together since you’re losing out on Blackjack which is a healing/damage reduction when people come out of Sap/Blind. I’d like to hear about other’s opinion with what they would change for Boarding Party.
Now to go on about the Hero Talents…
Trickster Outlaw
- The Fazed mechanic does not prevent people from Parrying your attacks. (Looking at Turbo Fists and Die by the Sword). This should be changed to allow us to ignore these 2 interactions or change the description.
- Coup de Grace and Killing Spree are way too easily stoppable. Getting sneezed at with any CC during either ability stops it entirely; getting CC’d during Coup de Grace makes it more underwhelming to press than it already is since you lose out on the ability’s remainder damage which is supposed to be a bigger dispatch. CC Immunity would greatly help these 2 abilities become more than Hero Talent functionality.
A suggestion I could make considering this Hero Tree’s interaction with Main Gauche is that Flawless Form could also amp Main Gauche’s damage since you proc about twice as many Main Gauches as Trickster over Fatebound.
Fatebound Outlaw
I don’t have much to say for Fatebound, this side of Outlaw will have far too much mobility through Death’s March when the Shadowstep talent node in the main tree changes to give us an extra charge of Grappling Hook.
- A change I’d suggest for Mean Streak is to increase the probability through a PvP multiplier or include Between the Eyes for the abilities that trigger this effect.
- Destiny Defined and Deal Fate are both Hero Talents that makes suggestions for Fatebound hard without overly buffing it.
- Chosen Revelry needs to be changed from Leech to probably be a Max Health % heal, albeit a small one since the other choice node is far beyond what this hero talent can do.
Tier Set
Remove the 50% PvP multiplier for the 2p Proc Rate, it’s already bad enough we have to deal with a nerf hammer due to overperformance on Heroic Difficulty and the compensation for a huge nerf was a tier set buff that’s still nerfed in PvP.
The last thing I have to say is that we don’t necessarily have a lot of builds to work with besides Crackshot vs KIR. It’d be a fresh breath of air if we had choice nodes for our capstones so we can have more build variety, especially some around Pistol Shotting since Greenskin Wickers have fallen off hard.
1 Like
Gear. Just like Sub you need gear.
But in all seriousness an update to old PVP talents that do not make sense anymore (eg Control is King).
But really Outlaw is now like playing like old school Sub using the extra vanish charges for burst. If you are not using at least one vanish following an opener or during mid combat for Crackshot you are really lowering your burst and CDR on AR badly.
They took the CDR from MFD and Dreadblades and baked it into AR and CrackShot + Ace up your sleeves. Very strange way to 'streamline" things.
And because Outlaw is playing like old school Sub those extra grapple charges will be used to escape for clean restealths for you guessed it more Crackshot openers.
And a talent like Maneuverability will be used for escapes for stealth openders because you can not really close gaps as it does not have CC protection. But you can use it to run away because most specs/classes (exception MM hunters) can not cast slows 50+ yards out.
You are now a Sub Rogue as Outlaw.
In summary openers Crackshot.
2 x Vanish Charges = More Crackshot
2 grapples or even 4 grapples restealth opportunities for = More Crackshot.
Crackshot is used to reduced cooldown on AR. AR is your energy. Very easy to follow but easy to mess up if you don’t understand that Outlaw is no longer a toe to toe spec.
If you are trying to wail away at targets without maximizing Crackshot you will fail. Outlaw is no longer a toe to toe spec. It is a hit and run spec to maximize stealth opener windows.
3 Likes
While this is their design intention, I’ve actively refused to play into it.
It’s funny watching warriors and pally’s pocket abilities in preparation for me to vanish out, not do it, and proceed to delete 40% of their healthbar in 2 BTE crits.
The DR from Fazed when paired with Leech enchants and smart defensive use makes us pretty resilient. Add in the ability to Killing Spree through someone’s nuke windows and cleanse the damage off with Cloak, and people tend to not have a clue how to handle it.
I will grant you, it’s nowhere near Shadowlands/early DF levels of ridiculous tankiness, but it’s enough to throw people off who are expecting you to fold instantly.
5 Likes
I’m surprised you’re not playing Fatebound.
Wasn’t this just the end of DF?
TRILL SOLO KILLS 2V3 IN THE AWC FINAL! #shorts (youtube.com)
The problem is that there’s a line between Outlaw being bad and Outlaw being a stat stick that just walks over every other Rogue spec, once arena twists from burst to pressure. Restless Blades activating for the long game is actually better in a lot of respects to desync against enemy defensives.
Not exactly the everyday experience, but something worth thinking about.
…
Also, armor auras apply in PvP combat. That Ret Paladin in Plate isn’t taking significantly less damage than that Windwalker Monk in Leather. Unfortunately, I believe there’s no longer a good basis to discuss PvP tuning because of so many auras changing the fundamental nature of each skill and class.
1 Like
Tricksters damage “loss” isn’t massive. When you realize how wild the variances on Fatebound are, it evens out to being basically the same.
Considering I’m hitting parses of 97s in a lot of fights at the moment and doing 1.5-1.8 mil overall in keys, while running HO, trickster, and not even using dps pots, or rank 3 consumables, not having the fist weapon set bonus… Yeah, it’s fine.
1 Like
In sims it’s barely a 50k loss overall on a dungeon slice compared to KiR with the correct haste stats. It’s neglible. In practice, Trickster is actually doing the most damage and by a fair amount.
2 Likes
It’s entertaining seeing people look at a WoWHead post recommending something and doing no personal testing to actually verify the data.
Like, I was settled before PTR even cycled through on staying with Trickster, because it sounded fun.
Fast forward to now, everyone is struggle bussing with KiR Fatebound builds that are the best on paper, and I’m over here laughing in Trickster HO and doing really good damage in actual practice.
1 Like
I’m still 60/40 towards preferring KiR atm. But yeah, Trickster growing on me a lot. Never worrying about Tricks is just game changing. I’m not sure why but KiR feels off this season. EU ping doesn’t help. But I’m struggling to keep AR up enough now and I’m geting way less crackshot windows, and when I do they feel clunkier.
But I think the reason Trickster is looking so far ahead isn’t because people are struggling with KiR but because they don’t seem to be playing it much at all. It looks like most people are playing HO/FB which was always the worst of the 3 for m+ in terms of output and there isn’t a breakdown between the 2 FB builds which muddles the data.
At least for me personally, the overall difference between trickster and KiR is basically the same, but Trickster is just feeling far better to play at the moment. Killing Spree isn’t even a big deal once you get an idea of when it’s safe to use.
3 Likes
I wish blizz will only stabilize the camera instead of having it shake during killing spree.
1 Like
No joke, it just needs to be turned into a Blade Dance clone, like Demon Hunters have.
There isn’t a reason to have the player shoot around like that. It’s jarring and annoying, plus leads to a ton of weird interactions and disconnects. I’m already tired of being teleported into thin air if I accidentally use it in Dawnbreaker on the side ships.
2 Likes
Reverting them to combat, probably
1 Like