My understanding is that the armistice means that the war is technically still going, they just agreed to a truce for a set period of time.
Now because of this, it would likely both the Alliance and Horde would agree to some kind of deal beyond just “lets stop killing each other so we can all go kill Sylvanas.”
I would think at the very least, the Alliance would argue to maintain claim to it’s conquests of Arathi and Ashenvale+surrounding area (Darkshore, Hyjal, Felwood, the night elf places) while also leaving the ‘heartland’ areas of the Horde (leaving the Barrens, everything north of Arathi and Gilneas, ect). Based on Gazlowe’s statement in SR, the Alliance apparently agreed to stay out of the Horde’s lane (and vice versa) so that means they both agreed at least to not try and step on each others shoes and stay out of each others territory.
Now this thread is designed to be a powder keg to piss off the Horde members of this forum so really I gave it more thought than it deserves. But I admit I am curious at the details of the armistice.
The armistice was signed during 8.3 as far as I know in order to get on Nzoth and have peace talks.
However an official peace treaty that would follow the armistice has not been signed because of Tyrande.
So technically the Alliance and Horde should be still at war, just not fighting currently.
Unfortunately we also don’t know what the peace treaty was about, I doubt it is just “ok leave everything as it is we have peace now”
Also since neither Tyrande, nor Maiev point out to Thrall in Shadows Rising that the horde still occupies NEs territory and thus his talk about “the horde has changed” is BS. It doubt they would have not shoven this into his face if it would still be the case.
And I doubt Tyrande would not have made the return of said territories a claim towars Thrall at the end.
So it is safe to assume the Horde and Alliance have withdrawn from all contested areas during these peace negotiations.
Refering to Ashenvale yes, because some people claim the Horde would still be in Ashenvale now since Blizzard didn’t explicitly mentioned it somewhere not being the case.
I allways try to argue that it makes no sense since Darkshore was a full on victory and the NEs wouldn’t have just stopped there if Ashenvale would still be occupied by the Horde, aswell as it would have been an elephant in the room in Shadows Rising.
So yes I aggree: The Horde is also driven out of Ashenvale, if they ever been there. They just blitzkried through it and the Sentinel Army arrived there after the horde in WoT questline.
Disarmament, disbandment and Lordaeron are the only things I can see the Alliance realistically wanting from the Horde, given the Alliance is resource-rich, seemingly self-sufficient and (now) in control of the majority of its historically contested territory.
So, disarmament is fairly obvious - it diminishes the threat of future Horde aggression. Likely this would be enforced by reestablishing Alliance outposts in Horde territory (and potentially making the Horde fund these bases).
Disbandment ensures the Horde can’t coordinate should it ever want to resume hostilities. Plus, freed of the central command structure of the Horde, it’s unlikely leaders like Baine or Lor’Themar would throw in with another war of aggression.
Lordaeron is a bit weird. It’s the historic heartland of the Alliance (even Anduin refers to it as “rightfully ours”) but hasn’t been functionally Alliance for X many years now, plus the Alliance spent most of BfA occupying it but (seemingly) withdrew as of the armistice, so it’s hard to say how much they really want it. It’s probably more the old guard (Turalyon, Genn, Danath, etc.) that would like it restored. (And hey, guess which set of dudes are running the Alliance in SL?)
The Horde should have to remove all presence from Ashenvale and other Northern Kalimdor zones including the Zoarm Strand and Winterspring. I think the Shatterspear need to go too.
The Night Elves should get to use the edge of Azshara as a border.
The Night Elves should get a good chunk of Stonetallon Mountain too.
Horde druids have no access to Nordrassil. They can still use Moonglade, but only the Tauren and Darkspear. The Zandalari druids are not allowed. I’d prefer if none of the horde druids were allowed in, forcing them to use Kharnum’s glade in Desolace or the Dreamgrove.
There are literally NO implications that the Horde is still there or even have been there after MoP, they just blitzkrieged through it in Wot and the NEs arrived with their forces there afterwards.
Shatterspears technicalle live in darkshore but for what they have done … yeah.
The big question to the overall approach for me is the following:
Should reperations and repercussions be fair for the Horde and on a base of mutual interests in order to secure a peace with of course some points being unnegotiatable, but also not in the interest to humiliate them.
Or should the consequences be harsh and humilation to the horde, crippeling them and make them feel what they have done so it is more about revenge than reperations.
The second one would lead finally to more conflicts which is something we ultimately have to do in warcraft. The first one would be noble but then we allways have the issue that at the end we need to get back to war but it feels wrong.
So my suggestion is: Treating the horde as unfair and as vengefull as possible in order for them to finally find it unacceptable and future conflicts then can be traced back there.
Also I think there have to be harsh reactions because of Teldrassil … the “Draenor is free” again we have nearly had is just no longer acceptable for me.
heh…here’s the thing fam if you ask for reperations in order to be harsh and humiliating, not only would people not accept it, even if you “won” anyone left over from said race would use every bit of strength they have to undermine anything you try to do in the future.
With a world ending threat happening just about every year you’re just shooting yourself in both kneecaps by purposely looking to be harsh and humiliating when asking for reparations against the only other World power
Sorry but I allways find horde players extremely hypocritical when they write things like that.
“Oh yeah we have done bad things …somewhat sorry about that or not … ohhh noooo if you do it than it is completely unfair and mean and you shouldn’t be allowed to do that”.
As I have said the sole purpose and reason for those harsh humiliating actions is:
enableing future conflicts taht WoW allways need to have.
Blizzard want it to be a WARcraft, not Peacecraft game.
But now we allways had the situation that an ultimate peace was negotiated and then broken for no reason …
This way we would have at least a reason for it … a cooking pod that at some time needs to explode and everyone knows it.
I can tell you how much fun and joy I have had in WoT and BFA.
So … that argument holds no value for me anymore.
So basically turn the Alliance into a group of rabid hypocrites.
Well, since your basically saying the Alliance should just be pissy about everything, it is worth pointing out there is no way the Allaince could get that, not because the Alliance is prone to forgive and forget, but because there is no way the Horde would agree to it and the Alliance doesn’t have the strength to force it. Anduin barely had enough forces left to launch a siege of Org and that was with Saurfang’s rebels helping.
Well sure if they want to move in and live under horde laws as horde citizens. They are going to have to accept integrating into the native culture though.
This would require the Alliance to devote resources and soldiers to deal with security threats the Horde currently deals with, particularly since the Horde would be unable to handle their own security. It would also put an even greater burden on dealing with issues such as the Scourge outbreak that is about to happen. There is no way in hell the Horde would agree to Alliance military outposts in their territories, particularly if the Horde was paying for them. Might as well demand the Horde completely surrender their sovereignty which the Horde would never agree to in any situation in which the Alliance couldn’t force it on them, which the Alliance isn’t able to.
This would serve little purpose and just make it harder for the Alliance to deal with international issues and states. Even if the Horde disbanded there would be nothing stopping them allying if a dispute arose and reached the point of military conflict.
The Alliance has no claim to Lordearon now. The current ‘surviving’ sovereign is hanging with the Horde and just because it was once a member state doesn’t give the rest of the Alliance a claim to it. If the NEs left the Alliance would Stormwind be justified in ‘claiming Ashenvale for the Alliance’? That isn’t an alliance. That is an empire. You would need to change the name of the faction to the Empire of Stormwind.
I don’t know. The CC seems happy enough to use Horde members as cannon fodder when they need people to fight for their interests. Also, if that was the case, the CC should be expected to give up any claim to authority over matters of nature in Horde territories. If the Horde isn’t going to be represented equally, the Horde shouldn’t be expected to respect the authority of that group.
I actually wouldn’t mind this. I would prefer that the Horde have its own groups that are on an even standing.
Also I am pretty sure there is no horde in Winterspring. The Goblins there are Steamwheel, not Bilgewater.
Fine but if we burn down your capitol city again, know you favored this choice.
In the end it doesn’t really matter cause if it was unfair the horde would just not agree to it. The Alliance is hardly in a better state to continue the war. If they continue, even if they beat the Horde, they would be so weakened it is unlikely the Alliance would be able to defend itself from other threats and frankly it is likely that such a course would only lead to more of the pain the Alliance has already gone through.
See, your mistake in your thinking is the assumption horde players have had any say in any of this.
But if you REALLY want fair then lets have it be a COMPLETE swap, along with the rampant Villain bashing and loss of characters and having the Horde ‘teaching’ the Alliance how to be good people. I am sure you will enjoy Thrall lecturing you on how to be Honorable. Maybe you can have Tyrande and Shandris go full villain on you and kill off Malfurion when he confronts them and end with being reminded that Anduin is the heart of the Alliance and represents the best of it.
Well, first of all, just because you didn’t have fun, doesn’t mean we have to take fun away from other players in the future. A better solution would be to give everyone fun, would it not?
Second of all, I will probably be the first one to say it, but I’m 120% sure I’d be less unhappy if I was a NE stan or at least an Alliance stan.
Being made to “feel bad” by both the fanbase and the narrative for the entire expansion sucked. And no, to me, having nameless NPCs die doesn’t feel worse. I would 100% take that over the Faction identity getting destroyed and my faves being written in a weird way. Any day, all day.
IMO, this seems less about “reparations” and more about turning WoW Night Elves into Warcraft III Night Elves. Can’t say I’m on board with that.
I wish they’d go more into detail on the post-war Night Elves, though. Are they on board with leaving the Alliance? Even those who have spent years among humans, dwarves, and gnomes? Is your average Night Elf ok with being led by a spirit of divine vengeance?
Returning to Hyjal might have actually been a smart move by Malfurion and Shandris. It’s defensible (I couldn’t even get into Hyjal for six years, and apparently those Guardians of Blizzard don’t screw around), but it’s so close to Horde lands that even Tyrande would probably think twice about marching out in force. It buys them some time at least.
Never said you have. But seeing horde players posting over these ideas and being huge hypocrits don’t lead to me respecting them more or even feeling some kind of remorse that it shouldn’t happen to them for a chance.
Actually i’m at a point where I don’t care anymore. At a point where I feel I have to be a bit more egoistic in my views and first and formost after feeling being allways the idiot who had to forget and forgive, no longer works for me. I just want my fruustration be soothed somehow and just being able to at one point step onto the bullies sand castle in retaliation is fine for me.
So I am completely ok with having the other side experience the same unfun and unhappyness I have had in order for me to get out of the misery.
And yes I know that the Horde players themselves have had no say in it.
BUT I also know how especially during WoT they all were cheering and grunting how awsome it is to kick the alliance players in the face and to nburn them. I remember how these players constandly mocked NE players with it to the point where I STOPPED FRECKING PLAYING THE GAME FOR 2 YEARS!
I was there Gandalf. 2 Years ago.
TL:DR i don’t think the Horde players should be saved from content or stories like that because it was unfun.
Let me get my share of it then we can talk about wether or not we shoudl stop now. But not yet.
Yes we can go there, after we have had vengence over Teldrassil.
I am so frecking tired of allways having to swollow everything for “the greater good” and “because if would be equally unfair and unenjoyable” … I sincerely don’t care anymore.
I think after all what happened it is ok if I get my share of feeling awesome at the expense of others.
After that we can agree that we shoudl stop that “cycle of hatred” but NOT YET!
some things can’t just be forgotten and forgiven. And this one if one of these.
Before we can get back to normal there has to be done something.