If you choose not to read or think, and then claim that people are just being argumentative, yeah I guess you might as well give up. *shrug *
Not like burden of proof is on the other foot or anything when it comes to instigating change …
I disagree.
I think that is very much supposed to be part of what makes Mythic Raiding special.
Ignoring the lockout selling for a moment, this would let a single guild repeatedly sell mythic end boss kills with loot as long as they make endless lockouts with alts, instead of only being able to do 1 clear, and thus sale, a week.
Being in a raid group of 20 people and orchestrating a difficult encounter to the point where you start making progress, and then finally win, is absolutely part of what is supposed to make Mythic Raiding “special”.
Getting a raid group of 20 people together, not so much. If the game was in a healthier state, it seems clear that Blizzard’s idea is that servers would have the native population and diversity for this to be fairly simple to sustain. It certainly was much easier (25-mans) back in, say, Burning Crusade, or Wrath.
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Lockouts don’t make it hard though. They just make it inconvenient. Lockouts are what stop most people from even attempting mythic raiding, they are so incredibly counterproductive it boggles the mind why Blizzard thinks they are still worthwhile.
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Who cares though?
everyone who thinks blizzard encourages carry sales so they can sell more tokens, for one.
[quote=“Aewendil-caelestrasz, post:25, topic:1103879”]
Lockouts don’t make it hard though. They just make it inconvenient. [/quote]
The “inconvenience” is part of the difficulty.
Exactly.
The thing is, you are searching for a way to make Mythic Raiding easy and accessible to anyone willing to try. And what I’m trying to get across is that Mythic Raiding is not supposed to be easy and accessible to everyone.
The game isn’t actually that hard. PvE isn’t just a game of reaction times and memorizing encounters. Pretty much any AoTC raider could raid Mythic eventually if that’s all it took.
The raiding scene is also very much about the logistical and organizational aspect of putting together and maintaining a consistent raid team. Lockouts encourage people to be consistent and not shift their raid team constantly. The game itself does that anyway, but lockouts make it very explicit.
If you aren’t willing to jump through hoops, you probably shouldn’t be raiding Mythic. Which is fine, and which is why Heroic difficulty exists.
Most raiders in a guild have absolutely nothing to do with the logistical or organisational aspect of running the guild. “Inconvenience” has nothing to do with any difficulty.
If the only barrier to people doing content at their skill level is something outside the game, for no actual reason beyond “just because”, you’re making a great argument for why lockouts are bad and outdated.
I don’t actually agree with your statements, but what you’re saying is so bad that it’s a great justification for removing lockouts.
If you aren’t willing to jump through hoops, you probably shouldn’t be raiding Mythic.
Hoops is not gameplay. Hoops are bad design.
I think the game would be pretty worse if that sort of thing became a norm. At the very least, there’s a very simple logical connection to more normalisation for buying content (from normal players).
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I think the argument is that the price of admission is high to keep out the riff-raff.
Raiding mythic isn’t that hard as an individual, but as of right now it requires a level of dedication that exceeds other difficulties. Those are the expectations set by the players, for other players. Blizzard isn’t saying you have to have AotC or specific M+ or PvP scores. It’s the players.
Nothing about gathering 20 players, inviting them, organizing or directing them is inherently hard, nor under-supported by the game.
Finding 20 players that fit the Guild Lead/Raid Leaders specific requirements on the other hand is much harder. Those requirements are dynamic and subject to change with the difficulty of the content. Ultimately it’s all driven by what the most motivated players are willing to copy others doing.
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Not to mention the price for such services would absolutely plummet. Think back to how many heroic sylvanas kills echo did in the weeks following their world first sylvanas kill to pay off their gold debt.
Now imagine all of those could have been mythic carries instead.
Again though, who cares? If people want to buy an achievement it doesn’t concern me in the slightest. For me (and most people) it’s pointless to buy it because the entire point of the game is to achieve that through your own effort. People who buy carries to AOTC or whatever have never and will never affect my enjoyment of the game.
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bingo. getting rid of the current mythic lockout system will not let you gather 19 random idiots and kill m painsmith. i don’t care if they’re all aotc and 254 ilvl.
But it would at least let you try.
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sure! as long as that’s not accompanied by crying for nerfs, I’m cool with that.
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Most raiders are just carried by their guild. We all know this.
Nah.
The thing is, that’s how the game has always been. To raid at a high level, you have to spend like 90% of your time outside the raid. Either on the raid/guild logisitics, or on theorycrafting and crunching stats, or reviewing logs, or farming mats, etc, etc. That’s what raiding has always been. It’s been made easier and more accessible, but Mythic Raiding is supposed to be the remnants of that hardcore “it might as well be a second job” grind.
If you think “skill level” is everything, just go pvp. Or do M+. Wow raiding fundamentally does not work like that, and never has. If you’re a hardcore mythic raider who thinks it does, that’s because you are getting carried by the guild and raid officers doing all that work for you.
Except none of these things are true about mythic raiding. In order to do mythic raiding, you just have to be lucky enough to find a guild that does mythic raids at times you can attend.
95% of people in mythic raiding guilds don’t contribute anything outside of that.
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that’s interesting. i wonder why everyone doesn’t raid mythic, then. i wonder why so many guilds get halfway through mythic and then disband after getting stuck on a Gorefiend or a Painsmith. i mean, if it’s just a matter of getting 20 people in an instance for a few hours a week.
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That’s just a ridiculous and false statement. If it’s true for you (general you, not personal you), you need a new guild.
The majority of raiders are just that, raiders. They’re there to play the game, be good at their class, and contribute the required damage or healing, or execute the strat. And that’s perfectly fine.
It really has not.
Not would it be a good thing just because “it always has been”.
WoW has increased the grindiness in the last few expansions compared to previous, but it’s nowhere near “like 90% of your time outside the raid”. For a fairly normal guild, a raid week can be something like 6-12 hours inside the raid during a week, 9 is pretty typical (3 nights x 3 hours), which is what you’re casting as ~10% of your time. The idea that WoW has “always been” about spending 80+ hours of prep outside the raid is … are you high?
Even at Top-100 US level, not a single player could or did spend that much time online. THat’s not second job. That’s literally 2 fulltime jobs for no pay.
I’m not convinced you’re ever raided or done PvP.
Well, you’ve touched on a few. Mythic requires a 20-man raid group for a few hours that are all in-server. That’s already some barrier, especially on the servers that aren’t massive. It requires several hours of commitment usually, so it’s a little more involved than joining into a random M+ group; many players of the game can’t just chunk away 2-3 hours with zero interruptions. It’s often a jump where significant new mechanics get introduced, or the fight even completely transforms, meaning yes you are going to be occasionally relearning a strat from scratch. Not that many people have that much interest in committing to raiding to that level.
Beyond that, one of the statements people throw around for granted that I vehemently disagree with is the whole “Game is easy”. The game is easy to us, as the 1% who have a ton of knowledge into little things, may have been playing for decades, etc. Like, I literally have instincts at this point about how mobs will move when I’m tanking, and so on that other people may never get. How “hard” the game is for us, doesn’t describe how “hard” the game is for others.
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I’m going to call into question your experience on this one.
The only point I’ll cave on is the word ‘most’ since that’s probably not accurate, but I am here to assure you that LOTS, like a staggering amount of Mythic raiders couldn’t find a weakaura with a Google engineer and a 5-person cheerleading committee.
Below the 5 of 10 mythic threshold, the lack of competence in the mythic raiding community is not that dissimilar to the other difficulties. You simply have players who are better connected or established. The “he’s not a great raider, but he a nice guy, so we don’t kick him” is a full fledged stereotype in mythic as much as it is in any difficulty.
Also, if you think your Team Leads don’t do inordinately more work for Mythic raiding than the raiders, I’m curious as to what your experience is with leading mythic prog.
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