Tbh idk, didn’t think rogue stealth out of game mechanics would actually turn one invisiblessed
The being raised into undeath thing is magical. Taking advantage of the askew decision making skills of traumatized people is not.
Probably s’alright when you get used to it. Velanora says she refuses to be a slave to this torment any longer so I think that was Windy’s idea. There are plenty of Forsaken clearly having a very fun time bringing the people of the world together one abomination at a time.
Probably. But where else are they going to go? Trying to assassinate the Banshee Queen or her Valkyr seems like a very difficult suicide mission. I think most people just figured out how to deal and moved along with ‘their life’. Now that the tables have turned perhaps they can get their vengance.
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So saying they’re weak willed and just accept being made into a monster? I mean certainly a few of them who would want to do what Godfrey did to syl.
And you still haven’t shown why you have to be named Vincent Godfrey to wind up plotting revenge afterward, and still haven’t explained why the Val’kyr have constant success in “manipulating” the undead but the former friends have a 0% success rate at bringing them back to their senses/turning them back on the Forsaken.
Occam’s razor is NOT on your side here, dude.
You guys realize the whole “raising the dead” thing is whatever blizzard decides at that particular moment right? They have never gave a consistent system behind it, it is whatever they think its cool. There are so many exceptions to any system behind what goes to be a forsaken that the only logical outcome is that there IS no system.
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Bad writing.
It wasn’t until BFA that the idea that the living were accepting of undead became a thing. There was the Gathering, sure, but not many turned up to that and of those who did many did not get along. I guess Tyrande’s way more open minded than her human allies. I assume the Dark Warden can’t be swayed because again - she saw the Maw.
Is not a thing worth considering in a fantastical, illogical setting being written by enough people to choke a sarlac where retcons are extremely common.
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This guy right here
Conveniently, that trend continues into BFA. Moot point.
Finally we agree on something. Now if you would only apply it to their handwaives as well.
Again, nobody remembers the Maw except Sylvanas. And you’d think she’d at least be able to be turned on the one who sent her to that hell in the first place.
This is why the Shadowlands as a “themepark” the characters will visit, ruins the concept of the undead.
If people are willing to return to a broken state just to come back to rejoin the living and “escape” from death, then the mystery of what’s on the other side and the reason for returning validates the undead as a people.
When you visit the golden fields of Bastion, turn to the blue angel and ask, “Why would someone want to leave this paradise?” And the angel just shrugs, there’s no mystery. All sentient undead are now just criminals who escaped the pokey and don’t want to get hauled back.
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I had to like your post just for this.
As for the Forsaken rage-vs-mind-control, I think it’s a sad waste of drama.
I can completely buy the “mindless rage on the sudden shock of dying and then being raised as a creepy zombie surging with dark magic” and the Forsaken having the experience to direct them at the Forsaken’s enemies during that stage.
But that only puts off the inevitable choice for later. And that later never happens.
We see Forsaken making this choice in Deathknell, and it was a great way of exploring character motivations and what the Forsaken believe about themselves. It ~sorta~ dealt with the ‘raising an enemy’ by having Marshal Redpath try to get like-minded undead to fight the Forsaken… but the description went out of its way to show that it was because he was crazy more than because he held a grudge.
The people raised in Silverpine would be a lot more different than those raised in Deathknell - these people were raised minutes or hours after their death, chose to be there to fight the Forsaken, and were definitely killed by the Forsaken, and are reanimated probably not far from the very spot where they fell and greeted by the same Forsaken they were fighting; unlike the longer-dead people carted to Deathknell and greeted by non-armored gravekeepers.
There could be plenty of reasons - dramatic reasons - for some of these new undead to join the Forsaken. Maybe they didn’t want to fight on this battlefield and ultimately blame the Alliance for their death. Maybe they just want a second chance at living, and being Forsaken is as close as they’ll get. Maybe they weren’t good people in life and they prefer Forsaken society. Maybe they just don’t want to off themselves. Maybe being forced to kill their former friends in their newly-risen frenzy broke something in them, and now they’re mad or scarily un-mad.
There are plenty of reasons - the game just never shows them. And that stinks.
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Pretty sure we saw undead in Bastion, so don’t think that plays out. Pretty sure it’s just Sylvanas who went to the Maw, because of the dealings with the Wrathgate and possibly even Garithos (the arbiter might have decided his men didn’t deserve that even if he did). The reason everyone goes to the Maw right now is specifically because of Sylvanas as well.
With a 0% backfire rate? Come on.
Hrmmm. I think I gotcha.
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Okay, granted, a 0.0003% backfire rate. Still seems raaaather low for what’s going on.
Yeah, the val’kyr pits surrounded by Forsaken and only Forsaken make it very questionable why there aren’t at least -some- friendly fire incidents.
It’s very clearly an explanation that got stapled on after the fact… I just wish that after making the retcon, they expanded on it rather than trying to pretend it never happened.
Honestly they should have just come out and said it was mind control to begin with, their dancing around the issue just makes it a giant plot hole and makes them look like incompetent lying writers.
Why tell the same story more than once from the writers perspective? Half of Forsaken questing would have become putting down hostile recently-raised forsaken, and the writers didn’t want to destroy Forsaken society until recently… Even if it had a ton of plot holes and was sinking already.
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I called it a lame excuse in my first response. Did you consider that a seal of approval?
I’ve many, many, many posts on these forums decrying the lazy state of Forsaken writing.
The crux of our disagreement was are the Nelves mind controlled. And again - I really doubt it. Possible but it’d hoover up all drama and intrigue away from the Dark Warden’s story.
Also why can’t people remember the Maw? We only know of one person who went there and came back and she remembers. And we don’t know when everyone started going to the Maw yet. Probably sometime recently seeing as Vol’Jin ain’t there.
And before you ask - speculation- but no I don’t think any undead were bad enough to go there. I think it’s max security prison for the absolute worst of the worst and no Forsaken or Death Knight was capable of evil on a grand enough scale to land there.
Contrived? Certainly but this is WoW we’re arguing about.
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The Zombie nelfs aren’t mind controlled because Blizz says they aren’t mind controlled. Full stop.
Is it stupid? Arguably, yep.
Is it poor writing? As above.
Are most examples of this a “have your cake and eat it too” work around of the Forsaken commitment to free will while rule-of-cooling in raising the enemy dead to fight for you?" Oh, hell yeah it is.
Were the deader nelfs a massively middle finger to a portion of the fanbase that already felt like a starved and beaten puppy? In my opinion, yes.
Is it what we’re stuck with?
Yep.
Just keep your fingers crossed we get to off them and put an end to it.
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So stop using reanimation as a tactical weapon. It would be a “Pyrrhic I win button” if it was remotely close to what Blizzard is pretending it is.
You say that like “I saw the scary place” had any intrigue.
The one who specifically got blessed by a god of the joint? Yeah, don’t see anyone else with those kind of chops.
Vol’jin got manipulated by 2 or 3 forces there, you’re naming exceptions, and even he can’t remember anything.
Uh, some definitely were. That guy running the human farm should definitely be there. Putress should too. Just not all undead, the old hypothesis that it was Undeath itself that caused her to go there is thoroughly debunked at this point.
You do realize that’s pretty much describing several of the Forsaken to a T, right? I don’t think many mortals have done worse than what they have to deserve getting put in there. I think that list would only have Ner’zhul and maybe Gul’dan on it. I really doubt you have to be a threat on a global scale to be so irredeemably tainted that the Arbiter sticks you in the maw.
Does it, though? Them specifically, not just describing the berserk rage in Cataclysm? Because I’ll take that citation if you’ve got it.
Alright it’s pretty evident you’re just arguing for the sake of it now and honestly I can think of better things to do with my time. Good day sir.
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