What makes the Horde better than Sylvanas? (rant)

Lore Story Forum
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A certain human death knight will undoubtedly point out that “they’ve reformed their leadership” which is proof of change for the better.

Which is, imo, eyeroll worthy. No matter how the Horde “changes”, it only takes Blizzard getting the urge to rehash this story again to make them break off and burn another city.

This is still true. We’re not dealing with genuine narrative development for either faction here - we’re dealing with a “sweep it under the rug” wrap up so we can move on to the next story. Saurfang was the sole individual to object to Teldrassil - which paints a wonderful picture about the Horde’s (npcs, specifically) feelings towards the situation.

Sylvanas embodies a good half of the Horde that does embrace that darker mindset - players and characters included. Blizzard has pushed the Horde more and more towards that side of its identity since MoP, and it’s only gotten worse over the years - so much to the point that it wasn’t just a division between characters of the Horde, it was a genuine division between the players (e.g. the saurfang pauldron movement at the start of BFA, the rebellion questline, etc etc)

With BFA, Blizzard quite literally rent the Horde in half - and not in the fun, exciting way; they literally desecrated what made it good and compelling for the sake of ‘shock value’ - and straight up validated the “Horde will always be monsters” claim that people have been arguing about for years. Is that the Horde I grew up loving? Surely not, but that’s the Horde we got in BFA.

The problem is that Blizzard can’t write themselves out of this with a sensible narrative - so instead we have to do a MoP Carbon Copy rebellion that is wrapped up by Sylvanas saying a “bad thing” and everyone magically turning against her. At least MoP had the balls to let us fight Garrosh.

Correct. People will argue that Saurfang died for his part in it, but it wasn’t by the hands of the people he wronged.

Also correct, but again - people will bring up the ‘council’ the Horde has formed; this is supposed to be the ‘change’ we needed to see. Scapegoating Sylvanas is the only way to save the trash fire of a story, and that’s what we get.

Blizzard’s asking you to just deal with it, and accept this as a reality. We’re not going to get better story telling - so don’t bother trying to make rational arguments about it; the only thing we get out of rehashing this topic is people getting agitated with each other.

Retweet.

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Since Cata, slight correction. We blighted Southshore and Gilneas and blew up a Druid school during Cata. Back in Wrath people were more questioning Sylvanas’ involvement with the Wrathgate, leaning towards “probably not,” not outright and reasonably condemning her in a decade-long flame war.

To be fair I think that was WoD’s doing. Showed the Orcs were more than happy to go around genociding and invading worlds of their own volition, no demon blood needed. Pretty black and white evidence right there. If one guy can talk you into invading a planet and killing or conquering everyone there for :poop: and :laughing:, you didn’t take much convincing.

Hey, I don’t mind playing the villain though, waaaay better to be the villain than the victim. You keep the moral high ground, I’ll keep my dignity.

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Granted, fair.

Ahh yes, how could I forget the other instances of the Horde annihilating civilians in other circumstances aside from Teldrassil. Just too many to count at this point, unfortunately.

I’m back and forth on this. I think that bringing Garrosh was a different kind of poison. He knew all the right things to say, who to whisper things to, etc etc. Yeah, it wasn’t demon blood compelling them, but it was someone who knew how to motivate them to similar ends.

I’d rather both sides get genuinely well written story rather than just one being hamfisted into being the villain. Dear god do I wish that the Alliance had better writing; ffs let Tyrande go off the rails - please.

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Wouldn’t that just wind up with a Sylvanas 2.0? I’m tired of 2.0s. I’m tired of faction wars. If she goes off the rails, please let it be to something more universal instead of “okay we’re tolerating having High Priestess Sherman here burning down South Hordalina, we just give her a stern talking to every once in a while.”

If she goes off the rails, I’d rather the Alliance know she’s off the rails and treat her as such.

He’s an Orc. Not an Old God.

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A curious statement.

for most, if not all, of the events in the story to occur.

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This is what I want.

The Alliance has done nothing as of late but outright abandon the Kaldorei; only the Gilneans came to their aid - and it speaks volumes.

Yup. And it’s what I absolutely hate about Blizzard’s narrative development approach.

In a sensibly written narrative, events are the result of character actions. In Blizzard’s dumpster fire story land, events are the result of Blizzard developers throwing darts at a board full of story idea sticky notes - and then screwing over certain characters in order to achieve it.

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It is mind control. Just not the magical kind. I think Blizzard walked back their Silverpine idea when they remembered that’d mean Slyvanas now had necromantic might not seen since the Pre-Illidari attack Lich King. And the ability to command the will of greater undead would worry every Forsaken and Death Knight who hadn’t had half their brain pecked out by vultures.

Not if they did not willingly serve the Banshee Queen. If they’re undead thralls who are but puppets of her will then they’re tools not people. They can’t have an alignment.

Likely because that’s not the case. The only suggestion it is, is flavor text on a toy. That can be interpreted in more than one way. I know you mentioned Yog’Sothoth’s puzzle box before but isn’t that just an easter egg generator? Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think it’s ever been refernced by the story. When did we have to track the Hellraiser joke down to help discern the mysteries of an Old God?

And also the big question - if it is indeed necromantic enslavement- why did the Nelf Dark Rangers abandon Slyvanas to go cry with Calia when the Dark Warden did not? Was she the only one considered valuable enough to keep on hand? Because seems to me a squad of mooks who have no choice but to kill or die for you would be pretty nifty to keep on hand - especially while you’re wanted by all the nations of Azeroth.

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I’m gonna be honest all the people syl raises as forsaken that where previously fighting her and the forsaken, should still be wanting her dead.

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Yeah I’m confused how there’s still undead Banshee loyalists at this point. Then again they’ve never delved into the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow much so maybe one of the belief pillars in that religion is unrelenting denial.

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I’m really drawing more from the silver pine questing where she raised Gilnean and or whatever humans where dead there, also SoO where she raised alliance humans why’s they jump on the syl band wagon so easily? Rather odd and never made sense

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“Reanimation rage” is magical. CPR doesn’t tend to wind up with people strangling nurses.

She already de-facto did, handwaive doesn’t really change what the results are. She still does. The Alliance had two weaknesses to work around
1: There are 8 Val’kyr (from their original perspective), take them out and she’s helpless. Mind you this doesn’t account for the lesser Val’kyr Blizz threw into Andorhal and haven’t been seen since, I suspect this one was also them walking things back, but still.
2: The Val’kyr cannot raise non-Humans, so the best bet is to keep humans away from any battles with the Forsaken.

Honestly the Gnomes in full force, vale tudo, would have had the best chance, but I digress.

It’s a prophecy machine, same way Ilganoth is, and gives lore hints. Flavor text on toys is not unusual to have lore hints.

Nah, she’s the only one who actually questioned Elune and started talking treason before the fact. That one’s more justified than the rest.

Uh, no? That’s not how stealth works. That is precisely when you don’t want a whole squad of people slowing down your movements.

magic undead berserker rage because they were angry when they died but it’s totally not mind control you guys i’m super serious ~ Blizzard probably

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Yeah but that would wear off and then we got forsaken who would want revenge for being turned into monsters and killing people they knew and loved

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Preaching to the choir, Erriden.

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At least forsaken made more sense as undead breaking free from the will of the lich king, I don’t know why they would be fine with their leader raising more into such an undesirable state. To quote syl “what joy is there? We’re still monsters sister, what are we if not slaves to this torment.”

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That’s the lore answer. The real answer is they had a different story direction in mind but changed it when they

I do not think having your heart restarted by a defibrillator and becoming the LIVING DEAD is a comparable thing. I’ve no idea why you’re trying to put Earth logic into a fantasy setting.

Uh, yes? Dark Rangers can stealth. They’re a mix between Rogue, Hunter, Priest and Death Knight I’d certainly want some on hand.

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Yeah, and that’s why your statement was ridiculous: undeath is by definition magical. I was illustrating that.

And it’s still harder to hide in a large group than a small one. More party members, more chance of being caught. No.

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Well let’s not forget that saurfang/thrall cinematic where rogues actually go invisible

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And Saurfang managed to track them despite this.

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Well I assume they weren’t always stealthed he did follow them to thrall.

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Then there’s no reason to assume the rangers would be either.