I know it looks bad now but Sylvanas is trying to save us all, she said so herself.
Bookmark this post.
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I didn’t bookmark this post, but I looked up this one:
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Something tells me you know bugger all about the history of the rise of the Horde. Such as the fact that the orcs didn’t know about the legion or even that the Cup of Unity was demonblood. They didn’t even know or understand what Fel was. KJ spent the whole time faking that the directions were coming from the orc’s ancestral spirits. It would be like if Elune turned up in the flesh waving around full credentials to prove she was Elune and told the NEs that the Tauren were a threat to Kalimdor that had to be removed.
One of the reasons Durotan was assassinated was he realized Gul’dan and Blackhand were taking orders from demons.
The great irony is the ‘warning’ that started the orcs warring against the Draenei is that the Dreanei and their magic was a threat to the future of the Orc race and the planet and, ironically, in AU Dreanor it turned out to be true.
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Ah in allot of the wotlk questlines, the bronze and azure dragonflight show this very well, the novel rise of a king, In no form of the story arc in game or out of game is he painted as a pure villian, if you skipped all the arcs then sure it might appear that way but he did the same thing as wrathion, Wanting 1 absolute faction to defend azeroth from the legion threat he saw it as undead scourge, wrathion saw it as the iron horde
Uhhh… two problems.
1: If that is true then it’s ridiculous that so many Night Elves instantly threw in their lot with the people who murdered them. And then turned around to murder their friends.
2: I don’t think it is true.
“It is said that only the most powerful can dominate the wills of the risen.”
Sounds like mind control to me.
Yeah, only the most powerful can. So far only the Lich King and his top lieutenants. And who knows maybe that’s what Windy did - I wouldn’t put it past her ethically - but thus far none of the Undead Nelves suggested that’s what happened.
Now maybe Windy’s playing the longest of cons and those Dark Rangers left of their own will to go hang out with Calia for some hitherto unknown phase 6 of her ludicrously convoluted evil plan. The Dark Warden is to be a character in the book coming in July so presumably we’ll know for sure then what the deal is.
But on it’s own - being sent to the Maw would feel like being abandoned by your God. That’d be traumatic on a lot of levels and someone in that state could be swayed by a manipulator. Undead are resistant to magical mind manipulation- they’re just as susceptible to the more mundane kind as anyone else. And with Windy having foreknowledge of their surprise Maw visit she could have a whole routine prepared to turn them.
Of course that might ya know be interesting. And tell a story about how unsavory leaders prey on emotionally distraught people. But who needs a story like that these days? Nah it was just evil magic what made them bad. Screw parables.
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Context going right over your head, is it?
We’ve got some data going back to the Cataclysm beta. Resurrecting Alliance in Silverpine originally came with an “and dominate them” line, but they removed it. The effect is the same so I don’t think it was a mistake, I think they accidentally revealed their cards too early and hoped we’d forget it or accept it’s a retcon.
Even then, “only the most powerful”, Sylvanas and by proxy her minions have been getting stronger and stronger. We already saw her smack down the Lich King with barely an effort. Seems they fit the bill.
1: Mind control can be lapsed later.
2: It says dominate their wills, which sounds more like mind control in the form of a forced change in their natures than outright puppetry. Much easier to make people do what you want if you make them want it too.
For like 15 seconds, and being sent to the Maw by the people who reanimated you. Revenge is a powerful motivator.
The Lich King disproves this entirely.
If the parables were of the caliber you’re asking for, Christianity wouldn’t have made it into Rome. No thank you.
No need to be rude, dude. Cumberbatch is one of the better posters on story forum. Certainly doesn’t deserve hostility.
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Apologies, I’m just rather tired of seeing that one. The context is pretty clear to me, dropped at Darkshore, after the darkshore scenario with the Night Elves suddenly embracing the Forsaken, out of seemingly nowhere, and then you get this lantern that tells you the strongest can dominate wills? Waaaay too much for me to believe that’s a coincidence.
Boy you’re pleasant. For the record we are discussing the flavor text of a toy that I thought made refernce to you, the player, being powerful enough to bind a valkyr to their service.
Your interpretation is possible but I’m unsure how much, if at all, toys are regarded as canon or a reliable source of information. Also you’re citing deleted text. Blizzard already explained away how that works. It was a lame explanation (the undead are super cranky when they wake up).
"Why do some Alliance soldiers raised by the Forsaken immediately become loyal to the Forsaken while others do not? Are they being mind controlled? If so, by whom - Slyvanas or the Valkyr? How does this relate to the fact that the Forsaken cultural identity is based on their free will and rebellion against the Lich King?
Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture, with the great capacity for both good and evil that it entails. However, some undead, especially those who die in combat or under extreme stress and are raised soon after, enter into a violent, frenzied state. Undead in this state are easily manipulated and their rage is often directed at the foes of those who raised them. After the effects wear off, if the risen corpse has not been destroyed, they are given the same ultimatum that other Forsaken are offered: join the Dark Lady or return to the grave."
- Dev interview with Metzen and Afrasiabi
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A player can bind a powerful undead Val’kyr’s will without any skill in necromancy but a Val’kyr, one of the most powerful necromancers in existence, can’t dominate a common undead Human’s will? Please.
Which is pretty bad, again, you’d think they’d be crankiest at the ones who reanimated them. Certainly you’d expect more people to pull a Godfrey and play along until they get the chance to shoot someone important.
By the Val’kyr, at Sylvanas’ behest, as a force on loan from the Jailer. If I get a Succubus pet to charm an animal, I don’t possess the charm, the succubus does.
No, I do not know what abilities a succubus actually has, I don’t play much lock and I tend to keep the blueberry out when I do.
Theme of the becoming everything they hate rings true. Because as we saw in Before the Storm, Sylvanas does not care about free will.
Might become again, but it was lapsed in recent years due to the cult of personality around Sylvanas. Even if it is just the “rah rah I am angry and I will take it out on anyone (who isn’t Forsaken for some reason) nearby”, that’s still mind control. And if I came out of that berserker state and found I’d killed my best friends I’d probably try to kill everyone who made me do so anyway.
Oh, also the undead displayed in Siege of Lordaeron, no free will there. Mindless undead.
Aren’t these the same two who said the Alliance was the dominant force on Azeroth after MoP, and then the first thing the Horde does next conflict is absolutely wreck them? And didn’t we hear from that team that we weren’t getting a Garrosh 2.0 here? I’d take that with a few dashes of salt if I were you.
Tyrande did try persuasion at Darkshore, that’s manipulation too, didn’t work. Most likely culprit: mind control by Val’kyr.
Yeah it’s a toy. I didn’t think those were canon and if that’s your head canon have fun with it. But the developers said what they said and it’s totally applicable in this scenario.
Also if Windrunner or the Val’Kyr can just dominate sapient undead it sorta begs the question why she had to torturously brain wash Derek when she couldve waved a magic manchurian candidate wand. Not that I’d put pointless sadism past here but still - bit weird.
Like I said we’ll know more come July. But I’ll take what’s been said and what I’ve seen over a toy’s flavor text.
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Toys often offer bits of lore. Yog Saron’s Puzzle Box, for example. This is one such case.
That’s kinda your fault.
They said this when again, 8 years ago? 9?
Creating an unwitting sleeper agent is a bit more complicated than creating a lackey. Honestly I’m still not entirely convinced Baine got to him in time, though Derek going to Tirisfal instead of staying with the family is indeed evidence that he did.
What’s been said and what’s been seen has been changed over the years. Originally one of the rules was no non-humans. In MoP she asked to reanimate Horde corpses, no humans there.
The flavor text is the best explanation we currently have for it.
Well if you decide to just outright ignore established lore, the build up for SL and other points of both BtS and BFA’s story then sure.
I’m not even saying you’re wrong. That idea is so incongruous with the rest of the plot I could actually see Blizz being silly enough to write it.
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Seems totally congruent to the storyline to me, no more absurd than “reanimation conveniently makes you kill your friends and not the necromancer but it’s not mind control.”
Lore established years ago when the rules were objectively different, yes, I can say the rules have changed since then because we have solid evidence that the rules have changed since then. We just don’t have a concrete answer to how much they’ve changed. Enough to reanimate things the Val’kyr once couldn’t, and enough to let Sylvanas personally smack down the Lich King and the army of Scourge in her way when she had to run for her life the last time (if that part’s even canon). And that’s quite a big change, the rules you thought you were safe using are unreliable.
Was mostly dealing with original Forsaken and those who were reanimated in Cataclysm, not freshly made undead.
Is filled to the brim with Sylvanas lying, breaking all the rules of engagement, and doing things some people thought were too low for her. Like the attempted sleeper agency of Derek Proudmoore and creation of mindless Horde undead. Clearly she did not care about free will.
Indeed she was seeking the Scythe of Elune in Cata to dominate the Worgen. She and a lot of the Forsaken by proxy haven’t cared about free will since her bargain with the Jailer.
I’m not suggesting Windrunner still cares about free will or for that matter ever really did. What I am suggesting is the Valkyr just mind dominating people doesn’t make sense if that’s what was used on the Nelves but not Derek - who’s free will had to be tortured out of him.
Also - whats more likely - a secret plot point only alluded to in toy flavor text being the reason or the Maw - a major zone and feature of the upcoming expansion- being the reason?
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Not sure why people refuse to accept the Blizzard writers are just bad at this point. Always seems the best explanation these days.
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Except Derek had to be made into a sleeper agent, not just a Forsaken faction member. Act totally normally until Sylvanas pulled the trigger when the timing was best and then carry out her will. Rather different requirements. Normal Forsaken would only have the one program, Derek needed a program within a program.
The former. Realistically a lot would want revenge on the Forsaken for throwing them in the maw. No such thing happened. Indeed there’s no evidence anyone but Sylvanas even recalls the Maw once they’re reanimated. Shadowlands would be a lot less mysterious if the Forsaken recalled them every time they came back.
Alright like I said have fun with your head canon. That all seems extremely convoluted so, there’s a fair chance it’s actually Blizzard’s plan.
Guess we’ll find out when the Dark Warden is one of the main characters in the book out July. Personally I think she’d be better used to hype up the Shadowlands but maybe she’ll remember she can use WoTF to break mind control just in time to save Bwonsamdi or something. Because God forbid an Alliance character turned evil because they were hurt or afraid- nah - it’s gotta be mind ufckery.
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Don’t get your hopes up. If there’s one thing Blizzard loves more than a convoluted storyline, it’s a convoluted storyline that never gets resolved. Dollars to donuts it won’t reveal anything about mind control, but won’t provide any evidence against it either.
And again, why is this “easily manipulated by the necromancer berserk state” not counted as mind control either? That hardly sounds like free will. Just sounds like shorter term mind control. I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again, they were being intentionally deceptive in that answer. They’re just not very good at it.
If they didn’t want necromantic mind control, they should have left necromancy as a strategic weapon, not a tactical one.
Problem with that: they were Horde characters the moment they were reanimated by the Val’kyr. It’s not like they listened to Tyrande when she urged them to come to their senses.
You want an Alliance character to go evil, make it an actual Alliance character that goes evil. Tyrande’s got a coin toss of going that way. More than Jaina ever did anyway. Genn, probably less likely than Jaina.
Also we know the track record, the Horde has blown up every city that’s been permanently blown up (Zidormi notwithstanding), the Alliance hasn’t blown up anything yet. Every one of their victories has been either hollow, neutralized shortly after, or shared with the rebel Horde. They couldn’t fight their way out of a paper bag. Don’t get your hopes up of them having any impact.
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