I can’t express how much I still want the wotlk divine storm animation back. I’ve been championing for it to come back for so long and I feel like they just don’t care at this point. There’s no reason for some sort of glyph to not be in the game so others can keep their current look.
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I don’t see why we can’t have both Long arm of the Law and Divine Steed as baseline. Warriors have charge and heroic leap baseline. DKs have death grip and a variant of wrath walk.
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This or rework the current visuals to retain the same wotlk aesthetic. It’s awesome that Divine Storm is part of the rotation more with Empyrean Power. It’s even more cool if Empowered Divine Storm is in play. You’re not alone in wanting a revisit on the Divine Storm visual.
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Like I already told you, it would be too much. Warriors have charge and leap, they don’t also have Blessing of Freedom and Emancipate, and Emancipate is required to make Long Arm useful, without it we may as well not get Long Arm back at all.
If LAotL and Emancipate was enough back in WoD, if it was balanced, adding Steed on top of that will so very obviously not be.
Another Paladin above made the reference that Warriors do have a variant of HoF. They have Bladestorm. Their Enrage also increases movement speed. You’re asking to re-introduce a mechanic that had its own challenges before its removal. Even without long arm of the law and emancipate, is there a specific scenario during BFA that you felt is critical? Are you strictly speaking from a pvp perspective? If so, why change the L45 bracket and not just include emancipate and long arm as a pvp talent?
There are Paladins who like Divine Steed and resent your proposal. Why include long arm and emancipate at the expense of removing divine steed as baseline? Any rational other than it’s trash and we should’ve never changed doesn’t say much.
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Which I’ve already responded to.
Only one spec has this, it’s only 10%, and they can only activate it in melee range and it only lasts 4 seconds.
Mostly, yes, but mobility is also a problem for us in PvE somewhat regularly.
Because we already have 3 PvP talents that are absolutely mandatory, we don’t have room for them. PvP talents are a flawed concept that shouldnt exist anyways… The concept that we have abilities that we can only use in one piece of content is absurd.
There is no reason for Emancipate to not be baseline, and there is no reason to not have a mobility talent row because mobility is important in all kinds of content.
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It’s 2x longer and half the duration. It also does damage and generates rage. The Paladin isn’t suggesting that Bladestorm is a carbon copy of HoF. The point is that mitigating crowd control is an option or skill Warriors have.
Maybe you’ll be satisfied with a talent tree that’s dedicated to pve and pvp, rather than having 3 slots available that’s unique for pvp players?
In pve, Paladins make virtually no use of the pvp talents. Why should pve Paladins, a base that’s presumably larger than the pvp scene, expend precious talent slots for your benefit?
In line of your thinking, isn’t it just better for you to have your own talent tree dedicated for pvp? In Blizzard’s most recent update, they’re adding WoG as part of HH presumably in L45.
Since you’re primarily addressing pvp, there are Paladins that don’t need long arm and emancipate. I’m not familiar with any raiding scenario where emancipate is critical because a boss or mob mechanic hindered our movement.
In this specific scenario, long arm + emancipate seems to only benefit pvp Paladins even if it might do so for pve Paladins marginally.
It’s unlikely that pve Paladins will want to sacrifice Divine Steed for Long arm and Emancipate. As another Paladin points out, Long arm requires a mob in close proximity to benefit from the movement speed burst. Divine Steed is a movement speed burst on command. I’m not sure any Paladin sees this change as necessary for a pve setting, even if you’re against separating talent trees because it’s absurd conceptually.
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Maybe you’ll be satisfied with a talent tree that’s dedicated to pve and pvp, rather than having 3 slots available that’s unique for pvp players?
If I think that having abilities we can only use in one form of content is absurd, why do you think I could care in what form those abilities come? It’s still absurd.
Why should pve Paladins, a base that’s presumably larger than the pvp scene, expend precious talent slots for your benefit?
They aren’t. Mobility is also important in PvE, which I just said, PvE rets complain about our mobility too. I do PvE regularly when I actually enjoy retail, I don’t right now, my sub is only active for Classic, but when I do, I would drop Steed for Pursuit of Justice in a heartbeat.
In Blizzard’s most recent update, they’re adding WoG as part of HH presumably in L45.
It’s still going to be hands down worse than Selfless Healer because WoG is still undertuned trash and still requires you to sacrifice 3 Holy Power to heal, whereas Selfless healer still heals for a decent amount and costs no holy power at all.
It’s unlikely that pve Paladins will want to sacrifice Divine Steed for Long arm and Emancipate.
How many times, HOW MANY TIMES do I need to tell you that they wouldn’t be? If they want Steed they can bloody well pick the damn talent and they would not only still have steed but they’d also have Emancipate, for frekin free as a bonus, AND they don’t have to waste a talent on Cavalier too because it also comes free with Steed! Fancy that!
Stop making me repeat myself.
I’m not making you repeat yourself. You’re answering different questions with the same answers.
Is there a specific scenario in PvE you felt where long arm of the law + emancipate is critical? Ref: Emancipate Wowpedia. Emancipate removes a movement impairing effect.
With your desired system, Paladins will definitely be sacrificing Divine Steed for Long arm and Emancipate because you’re requesting Divine Steed to be removed as a baseline skill. There is a difference between having to choose Cavalier + Divine Steed among other alternatives and having Divine Steed + other options to enhance our movement. This is even if emancipate is a bonus.
If WoG is undertuned trash, you’re admitting that the problem isn’t the skill itself. You’re saying that the numbers are off, which is fixable (if Blizzard feels it’s really a numbers problem).
Arguably, there is no reason to not have long arm and steed as a baseline skill for all Paladins. Again, warriors have charge and heroic leap. DKs have death grip and some variant of wrath walk.
You said you thought it would be unlikely for PvE paladins to drop steed for Long Arm, they wouldn’t have to, because they could choose steed if they wish, something you already know.
Critical? No. Better than Steed? Almost always. I’d be taking PoJ personally, though. Emancipate should be included just as a baseline because:
- it was in the past.
- there’s exactly 0 harm in it being baseline.
- we already have too many mandatory PvP talents.
and - it frees up Freedom to be used as the group utility it is meant to be instead of having to be hoarded selfishly during any fight with snares.
It’s not having to choose, it’s getting to choose. Right now they have no choice, they would have a choice.
And yet again I have to repeat myself and tell you that having DS+Cav+ either LA or PoJ would be too strong.
No, not arguably.
We had plenty of mobility in the past with nothing more than a choice of PoJ or LA + Emancipate&Freedom. If that was enough, that plus Steed&Cav WILL be too much. I don’t know how much more clear I can be on that.
You need to maintain balance. Not only is suggesting to be made too strong not likely to happen, it if somehow does, it will likely result in being the victim of Blizzard’s signature move: ‘the overnerf’ and you’ll end up worse than you started off.
Additionally, asking for more than we know is needed to fix the problem is ridiculous and makes us sound selfish.
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Is there any scenario in PvE (raids, dungeons, questing, etc.) where you felt that long arm + emancipate is needed? You can include your personal anecdotes in a specific boss fight. This is under the assumption that PvE Paladins will benefit from the skill as well.
You can request emancipate to be returned as a baseline Paladin skill, but why remove Divine Steed? Saying that DS+Cav+ either LA or PoJ would be too strong means what precisely? Do you feel this will improve specific match ups? In a 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, or specific raid boss, will Paladins vs other class’ win rate drastically rise? Now that BFA is over, were Paladins at a disadvantage because they had divine steed and not long arm + emancipate? In what instances can you imagine we’re severely underpowered?
Going into Shadowlands, we’re going to face new raid bosses and duel against modern classes. Just throw a number. If Divine Steed is removed as a baseline skill and Cavalier + Steed is a new L45 talent among PoJ and Long arm, what improvements do you think you’ll see in win rate percentages for Paladins?
Paladins in BFA and SL are not the same as they were in previous expansions. The same applies for other classes.
Again, you’re saying that Divine Steed + Long arm is overpowered. In what regard? Will Raid Leaders decisively choose Paladins over Warlocks? Will Paladins be more favored over Warriors and DKs in 2’s and 3’s because they have Long arm instead of Divine Steed?
Again. Warriors have charge and heroic leap. DKs have death grip and some variant of wrath walk. These are just plate classes. Demon Hunters have fel rush and backflip. Rogues have chain/blink, sprint, etc. Mages have blink(2). In what way is introducing long arm + steed as a baseline skill overpowered and unbalanced?
Is there any scenario in PvE (raids, dungeons, questing, etc.) where you felt that long arm + emancipate is needed?
Any fight where movement is required more than once every 45 seconds. This also applies to PoJ vs Steed.
but why remove Divine Steed?
Because many paladins strongly dislike it. Those who like it can keep picking it as a talent, getting Cavalier for free alongside it, those who don’t like it no longer need to have it shoved down their throats, everyone wins.
… Seriously? Do you really need me to answer this for you? Do you really?
What part of the equation:
enough + extra = more than enough
do you not understand?
If enough is enough, then why would we ask for more than enough? Asking for enough is not only more likely to happen than ‘more than enough’ is, but it’s also less likely to result in later getting hit with the nerf bat, which we want to avoid as much as possible.
And the above paladin is correct Justicars vengence is a dead talent. 5 hp and garbage healing and damage. We can not justify using it. It was supposed to be the paladins version of Death Strike. But unlike Death Strike ours is just flat garbage and should be trashed.
I am sorry but I have been up for 30+ hours what is HH again?
Wait is it Hand of Hindrance?
Darned insomnia.
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So here is my two cents about this topic. I know a lot of paladins hate Steed.
But lets look at Long arm of the law and Emancipate. While these two are good choices what happens if there is movement needed and nothing to judge? Unless they make it so we can Judge our selfs or teammates as a weak heal so we can get that speed buff then the system is…Well an issue. And before its said I am looking at not just pve but also for running old dungeons.
Here is my thoughts give us 2 leaps. And give us Long arm and emancipate.
Steed I am meh about it at this time I have seen this argument play out enough to make my head hurt.
Some people like steed some do not. At this point I think if blizzard was going to do something they should make a survey where you could only vote once and on accounts that are subbed to see if its kept or not.
But these are my thoughts. And just like I want to see seals come back. I also want Paladins to have good movement. I will never stop trying to get seals back for those of us that enjoyed them.
If you want to give your two cents on the topic you should read all of it first, because it seems as though you missed the main point. Steed would still exist as a talent, with Cavalier baked in, on the same talent row as Long Arm (and Pursuit of Justice as it existed in WoD, +15% movespeed + 5% more per Holy Power you have, up to an additional 15%), if someone doesn’t want Long Arm, they can pick one of the other two talents, that’s the whole point of making them talents, so people have choices.
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I hear what you want Paladins to change. Thank you for sharing.
I don’t think Warriors have two leaps unless they talent for it.
A falling sword mechanic for Paladins is neat, other than how dry it is to borrow skills between the two franchises. Heroic Leap, Blessed Hammer, Falling Sword, etc.
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And yes I did read it. Turning them into talents. Personally I do not like removing baseline mobility and turning them into talents. What would the 3rd optoin be for the talent?
And unless something has change blizzard removed our passive for mount speed and then returned it as an aura in SL.
I’m almost exclusively a PvE player these days, and I would take that trade in a heartbeat. Judgment has a 30 yard range, so it’s easy enough to get that speed boost. Now, the current Judgment has a much longer cooldown than the old 8s CD, but that could be balanced by increasing the duration of the speed boost by a 1-2 seconds.
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We’d have the old MoP/WoD mobility row: Speed of Light (or Divine Steed), Pursuit of Justice, and Long Arm of the Law.
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