We would rather if you don't play sub rogue

Hey everyone I think we have been a bit bad at picking up all the hints blizzard has dropped since release of Dragonflight season 1 as to why they just want us to stop playing sub rogue. Rogue is already basically the least played class in the game, and sub is the least played spec of that class. (you might say oh in season 3 DF sub was the most played in mythic raid, but thats because it was literally the most op spec in the entire game in s3 dragonflight, and even then, if you looked at non mythic logs, it was the lowest rogue spec played WHILE BEING THE MOST BROKEN SPEC IN THE GAME )

lets go down the memory lane and look at all the hints we got.

im not going over the DF changes because theres a word limit on this and my god my first version of this draft was a litearl infinite yap… so Ill just take a look at tww changes since alpha.
Thes will be in order, so if you see something that they did for tww launch and are changing in the 11.0.5 release patch notes, ill explain that too.

Spec changes:

  • cttc baseline → premeditation only now gives you full combo points from stealth: This was a good change for outlaw and sin (gave them basically +1 spec point), for sub? now my opener is me spending the first 7 seconds of combat pressing backstab to get enough cps to get snd and rupture up. additionally, this change meant premed and the first dance are literally the exact same talents (except premed also works with vanish). i love getting literally duplicated talents in my tree (hint 1)
  • sepsis removed from sin and outlaw. remained on sub → fascinating, who enjoyed pressing sepsis? this talent actually worked well for sin in s2 but has never worked for sub.
  • shadow dance went back to sub and instead we got 2nd charge of vanish in its place. shadow dance going back to sub was good for almost everyone, sure some outlaw players didn’t like losing it, and some sin “MAH RESETEALTH” copers didnt like the change, but it was healthy for the game. but what did sub get? well, we lost 2nd vanish charge, a utility talent, and a defensive talent (since we have a talent that gave us a 30% max health shield on vanish). so sub was the only spec in the game that basically lost a defensive, a utility, and had a defensive talent nerfed by 50% . (hint 2)
  • They then decided to lock 2nd vanish charge behind 2 points of subterfuge, which is basically only a thing for outlaw, and pvp. But the 2nd vanish charge was required for any dust builds, which meant we just had to path through 3 dead talents, suffer a clunky playstyle of ignoring all 6 seconds of subterfuge in our cds, to play dust. (hint 3)
  • They then put Shadow focus in place of our 2nd vanish charge, but its now a dps talent competing with utility talents in the same row, something they have made sure not to do for other specs (even though the 2nd vanish charge was a major dps talent for dust builds and they didnt care). well, lets nerf this talent by 50%, make sure its worth about 0% damage, so players dont feel like they have to take it. great solution. (oh and shadow focus and master of shadows are literally identical in functionality and use) we are now at 2 duplicated talents. (hint 4)

Now we get to 11.0.5 changes:

  • snd change → you dont need to press snd anymore, it just automatically works. this works great for sin and outlaw. for sub? its fine, but this changes litearlly not a thing for sub. all it does from the earlier change with cttc is that on opener, instead of going strike, slice and dice, 5 backstabs, rupture. you instead do strike, evis, 5 backstabs, rupture. you just press a 3cp evis instead of a 3 cp snd. you still have to spend the next 6 seconds pressing backstab before you can start your roration. they managed to once again find a way to screw sub. im so proud. (hint 5)
  • Soothing darkness changes → this was originally a SUB only talent, was reworked to work for all 3 specs, and put in class tree, now its basically only an outlaw talent. once again, nerfing subs survivability. with this change, what can we do with the last point in our class tree capstone? put int recoup? but recoups been broken since dragonflight season 1 and doesnt work. thanks blizz. once again, we nerf subs survivability (only spec in the game to get 2 survivability nerfs in less than 1 patch) (hint 6)
  • dust removal changes → now dust is a very polarizing topic, many people hate it. but what dust did was 3 things. 1) it gave sub a niche that differentiated it from sin. without it, theyre both 2 min burst classes, except sin has better cleave, and execute and sub has nothing. 2) it solved core problems of the spec. without dust, we are very starved on dance charges, our cds feel unfun to play, since we need a 6 second intermission between dance 1 and dance 2 to farm back sectech → which also means since dance is 8 seconds + 6 second intermission, the last 2 seconds of dance 2 will fall out of blades… and lastly, it helped us have sod cover the entire blades duration, so we dont overcap shadow technique cds, and also have even enough energy to get all gcds out during dance. 3) dust was the only reason there are any form of talent diversity for the spec. the dark brew builds play the exact same talent in all form of PVE content (m+, raid, solo content, single target, cleave, everything). Now these are all from a pve perspective, PVP wise, pikaboo put this better than I could. (hint 7)
  • but this dust change is not the only problem. they are doing this in the middle of a patch. For example, silken court has a 1.5 min interval burn timer, so for people that are progging that boss and rely on subs rogues burst at 1.5 min intervals, after the patch they have to re-evaluate their plan because sub is no longer able to have cds there, people have to relearn fights they are already progging on because they didnt have the human decency of waiting to make such a giant horrible change for a major patch. (hint 8)
  • New talent : 1/2 additional Symbols charges → this is the most disgusting change of all. not only it shows that 1) the devs dont even understand how sub works (what is the point of a 3rd symbols… it will literally be 100% unplayable, and all it does is it makes sure we also cant take rotten). 2) the devs dont have the most basic understanding of the talent tree itself, in that, even if this node was good (which to be fair, 1 charge of Symbols is a “fine” thing), because of how its positioned it is literally not pickable. 3) This just shows that the devs understood the lack of sod during blades problem of the spec, but not the other things that dust solve, once again showing how clueless they are in how this spec works.

I think im putting all of this together and understanding why rogues so unpopular. I think im finally getting why sub could be the most broken spec int he entire game, and most players who are not a high end mythic raider, will never play it. Honestly, I think blizzard is doing a great job in killing the spec.

I guess last hint but from s1 DF to s3 DF sub m+ title owners went from basically tripple digit to single digit, to 0 players in season 4. great job blizzard. specs almost dead. great job everyone.

22 Likes

Very good post.

10 Likes

Spot on. The removal of Dust makes the spec so rigid.

Add in the fact Deathstalker currently isn’t even fully functional right now and our cooldowns, which the spec plays around, are all on different timers – I think Blizz is hinting that they’d prefer we play something else.

8 Likes

I’m not entirely sure what happened to the dev team’s vision and dedication to making sub a fun and engaging spec, but it’s been getting progressively worse and worse as expansions go by. There’s no denying it anymore.

4 Likes

Good and informative post. Let’s just hope it grabs enough attention for Blizzard to notice.

I only played rogue casually as an alt but sub is by far my favorite spec, so seeing it just being slowly tortured and put down by Blizzard sucks.

2 Likes

Not sure what everyone is complaining about. I crush the meters on every boss fight thanks to shadow blades

3 Likes

Post on your rogue then.

2 Likes

Very, very good post but now, IF someone from Blizz sees this great post, they are going to do the same thing as this one person did in Twitter; most of us have probably seen that infamous meme: “What a great post and opinion…it would be a shame…if someone…deleted it”.

2 Likes

I will continue to play sub for pve dangit.

3 Likes

I am rather new to rogues, as this season is my first rogue ever. Been playing since vanilla…so I built my rogue to be my gatherer, and now it will be for PVP.

I started as a Outlaw, and I changed to Sub because of my stats. My question SUB good for PvP? Not really focus on PvE just PvP. It does seem I have to hit backstab…a lot. Not sure if that is how it works, but any info would be helpful.

2 Likes

its good for pvp but it is a very setup based spec. it cant really apply pressure all the time, instead you rely on windows where you can “control” targets, and do quick burst to force defensives or get a kill. thats why it works well in rmp, becuase you can do a lot of different cc setups.

3 Likes

Blizz needs to see this and take immediate action and make sub rogue fun again, they need to make sub rogue playable again. They need to have it make sense again. And ultimately they need to make sub rogue great again!

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Sub is the defacto PvP spec. Between Shadow Dance and it’s mastery effect it can dump alot a damage and CC. Learning how to us Shadow Dance is the key to Sub PvP.

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Hmm for sopme reason, it seems I cannot switch over to my Rogue unless I log out. So I’ll post from my Shaman.

I am starting to get the hang of being Sub. As @Krypteia said, Shadow Dance and mastering how to use it is the key. Now that I have full pvp gear, and I am starting to upgrade it, I find that I can survive a bit longer, but practicing my openers and when to use Shadow Dance is starting to pay off.

Was attack by a Warrior in open world last night, and I did very well against him, even though I did ended up dying, he did not walk away. It also taught me that I need to pop defensive, something I am not use to on the rogue.

Thanks for the tips, I am enjoying playing Sub Rogue, Now I just need to learn how to counter frost mages, as I seem weak against them…

1 Like

I think the devs would rather we don’t play Rogue period. Rogue is at times useless in PvP because Stealth doesn’t work, and you also basically can’t do leveling quest content because everything hits you like a truck (getting some gear off the AH helps a little, but still).

2 Likes