We need better mythic + alternatives

[Aerogosa-mannoroth]

You literally just want m+ without a timer that gaurantees rewards or acts similar to torghast where you get nothing.

If you want it to not be like torghast where deaths matter, what you really want is just normal dungeons that give you mythic level gear. Please take that view anywhere else but anywhere near wow.

There is a reason that there is a progressional level of gear vs skill/challenge. Please go play a single player game if you want the best gear handed to you for next to nothing.

@Syp-stormrage

discuss strategy or change of strategy

There is no “strategy”. The game has been solved for a long time.
There is a certain way to do dungeons, with very miniscule changes that make it faster (like using a gate to abuse terrain walls or just literally pulling more with certain comps and hard CC bursting it down)
There is also very little different ways to do a raid boss.
For raids this has been true for MUCH longer than legion.
You either do the boss correctly or you dont.
With m+, you either do the bosses/trash correctly and in time or you don’t.
Wowhead and youtubers/streamers give you the guides before the game is even out. The dungeons are literally designed with a linear route in mind. LONG gone are the days where a dungeon like BRD or UBRS exists (and UBRS used to be a 15-man raid not a dungeon where you can do it in almost any order (and even then, it’s pretty scripted)
You do the trash to boss a.
Repeat boss B
Repeat boss C
Repeat Boss D and E if there are 4-5 bosses
You either do it in time or you don’t. Profit.

@Hezzlocks-khazgoroth

People use Sap, Polymorph, Banish etc in M+

Literally all the time. Shackle and like minded hard CC is still used on the 2nd boss of Necrotic Wake whenever it’s in rotation because it literally takes a skeletal mage out of the fight completely and you don’t even have to kill it because it doesnt count towards the explosion the boss does.

Just because you aren’t doing keys high enough (or maybe you are and your team(s) are just goated) to employ their use doesnt mean it just doesnt happen.

Half the reason that MDI pulls are even possible is because hard CC is still used. Its just usually aoe hard CC like cap totem and mass grip instead of singular CC like sap, particularly because, since wrath, the PC is just too strong versus non mythic+/raid content to need CC. Blame that on people wanting the world to be safer and easier, not M+, because this was happening FAR before Legion.

[Chymmee-tichondrius]

@Aerogosa-mannoroth

Please go play a single player game if you want the best gear handed to you for next to nothing.

I guess you never player the Souls games.

[Akston-area-52]

@Chymmee-tichondrius

I guess you never player the Souls games.

WoW cant be turned into a Souls game.

Could you imagine the forum riots from the solo players?

[Aerogosa-mannoroth]

@Chymmee-tichondrius

I guess you never player the Souls games.

Which is largely a single player non-mmo experience please keep up.
Its literally just skyrim with a small multiplayer system that has no bearing on actual progress.

Also, solo players aren’t good enough for WoW to be a souls game and would r i o t on the forums if wow was made into something like that. We already have hardcore stats and failed pull/key stats for that.

[Chymmee-tichondrius]

@Aerogosa-mannoroth

Which is largely a single player non-mmo experience please keep up.

@Aerogosa-mannoroth

Please go play a single player game if you want the best gear handed to you for next to nothing.

Uhh you need to keep up bro. You denigrated single player games so I was calling you out.

[Hpellipsis-whisperwind (Hpellipsis)]

@Aerogosa-mannoroth

Also, solo players aren’t good enough for WoW to be a souls game

Zekvir “??” is basically an introductory souls boss with a more intricate combat system and people are already struggling.

It’s 3 mechanic call and response with some pattern recognition / dodging thrown in.

[Aerogosa-mannoroth]

@Chymmee-tichondrius

You denigrated single player games

I didn’t insult anything. I said if you wanted gear for next to no effort compared to the group content that is organized mmo play, go play a single player game.

They are, by far with decades of proof, exponentially easier to progress than something like WoW simply because “personal responsibility” does not exist. It’s only your fault if you die/lose. It’s not little timmys fault or the dadbod 42 year old with 24 kids and 8 jobs who only plays 3 hours a week but never seems to get better that kills you/makes you lose.

which lets be real, is likely the main reason people in threads like this dont like the timer, because they don’t like personal responsibility that isn’t there own making them lose. While I totally get it, it’s not a valid complaint to turn progression systems into what it was in Vanilla where it was just normal dungeons and 20-40 man raids that were tuned such that half the raid can just afk and the other half does 1-3 button rotations and you down content.

We have modes for that.
Classic Era.
Hardcore.
For this thread, you have M0s.
Go play that.

Oh but you want it in retail again and like the op says, you want mythic raid ilvl from m0. Thankfully, I’m glad that’s not happening and you got delves instead. M+ Isn’t going away when they have something like the MDI just like pvp is never going back to just BGS when they have the arena championship and raiding is never going back to just normal and heroic when RWF exists for mythic.

Now should they reiterate on delves? Unequivocally yes.
Should they get rid of M+ instead? Absolutely not.

@Hpellipsis-whisperwind

Zekvir “??” is basically an introductory souls boss with a more intricate combat system and people are already struggling.

@Hpellipsis-whisperwind

people are already struggling.

@Hpellipsis-whisperwind

basically an introductory souls boss

Welcome to the point.

The whole game being like Zekvir ?? is exactly what the playerbase doesnt want.
Thats why the badge system in TBC/Wrath was a thing.
Thats why cataclysm dungeons were hated.
Thats why LFR was praised by said part of the community.
Thats why Delves/torghast were initially praised (before torghast was changed into the cesspool it was and delves were shown to be as irrelevantly easy as they were)
Thats why every single time M+ got easier, it was heavily praised.
Or why 40 mans became 25, and then 20.
Or LFD was implemented because even finding a dungeon the old way was getting tiresome.

WoW’s population wants easy content. The disconnect is they want the hardest gear for the easiest content. That’s where blizz, and the people that actually do the harder content, push back.

Have your easy content. Cool. But don’t expect the best rewards to come from it.

@Chymmee-tichondrius

I’d argue that a hard single player game like Dark Souls or Ninja Gaiden Black to name a couple is harder than any group content just because you have no one else but yourself.

They just simply aren’t.
Both of those games are heavily scripted. DS players literally try to handicap themselves to make it harder because of how scripted it is.
NGB especially so, ignoring the fact you’re trying to dishonestly use Master Ninja difficulty and specific bosses as some kind of argument.

Individual Skill will never be more frustrating or difficult than grouped personal responsibility play. Failing something not because you messed up, but because someone else messed up, is the reason why this thread exists.

[Chymmee-tichondrius]

LOL bro you did it again.

@Aerogosa-mannoroth

I didn’t insult anything.

@Aerogosa-mannoroth

I said if you wanted gear for next to no effort compared to the group content that is organized mmo play, go play a single player game.

I’d argue that a hard single player game like Dark Souls or Ninja Gaiden Black to name a couple is harder than any group content just because you have no one else but yourself.

So I have to assume you never played those games.

@Aerogosa-mannoroth

Oh but you want it in retail again and like the op says, you want mythic raid ilvl from m0.

LOL where did I say any of that?

[Slotmachine-sargeras]

Delves is as best as you get , up to 626 ilvl

[Deathsbounty-area-52]

as a m+ player i really never notice the “OMG THE TIMER” thingy…

If you play smart, know the mechanics, hit your buttons and minimize death… the timer kinda is irrelevant?

[Mazrael-proudmoore]

Why not try a destiny 2 GM style version? Tight on lives and based on survival with no timer? Yeah you can technically sit around for cds between pulls but who wants to do a 2 hour dungeon? You’d get a bit more waiting sure but people who thinks you’re resetting lust every pack are delusional.

Who knows maybe if players success was less on beating a timer and more on survival then it might even encourage people to play better.

[Hpellipsis-whisperwind (Hpellipsis)]

@Mazrael-proudmoore

Why not try a destiny 2 GM style version? Tight on lives and based on survival with no timer? Yeah you can technically sit around for cds between pulls but who wants to do a 2 hour dungeon? You’d get a bit more waiting sure but people who thinks you’re resetting lust every pack are delusional.

So just bring tanks?

Ultimately shifting focus from optimisation to survival reduces the need for people to understand how to play their class well, and I view that as a bad thing.

[Kiyoko-ravenholdt]

GM activities have a timer after which you can no longer resurrect, and an ammo economy that limits your ability to infinitely spam your heaviest-hitting items since ammo comes from kills.

Also getting two-shot or even one-shot by a sniper, and is an FPS game.

[Aerogosa-mannoroth]

@Mazrael-proudmoore

if players success was less on beating a timer and more on survival

They are literally synonymous. Hit the minimum dps/hps required for the key level and dont excessively die and you will time the key, every single time. Provided the tank isn’t pulling at a snails pace.
Especially when the Challenger’s Peril Affix for 7+ was hotfixed to give you almost 2 extra minutes per dungeon for literal free.

[Daarrk-thrall]

What is this? We already tried this. The mage tower and 5 masks visions were what you are asking for.

Players complained they were too hard.

[Aerogosa-mannoroth]

I would still rather people know their class well over only surviving.
Especially if you want the best gear for it.

[Snozay-area-52]

@Xagathon-hyjal

Lets be honest, for a lot of people, m+ just isn’t fun

Then dont do it.

@Xagathon-hyjal

Delves kind of help but stopping the grind able gear at 603 and the low amount of crests makes it less beneficial by a long way

Delves should never award higher that 603.

@Xagathon-hyjal

• no timers
• queue level available based on ilvl instead of players discretion
• Stiff penalties for leaving
• Focus on slow and steady, cc, group coordinating
• Scaling loot like m+

No.

@Xagathon-hyjal

Dungeons would get harder and harder but instead of ERMAGERDZERG SPEED AGHHH, it would be a focus on calculated pulls and control over the dungeon

Or maybe we need something that’s not dungeons, just throwing this out there, what do others think, what are your ideas?

No

[Snozay-area-52]

@Chymmee-tichondrius

Does that really matter? Prestige comes from beating content not from iLevel or at least it should. In particular because Blizz will never be able to balance Raiding, M+ and solo Delves.

Yes it actually does. This game as a whole bases rewards on difficulty of content.

[Chymmee-tichondrius]

@Snozay-area-52

This game as a whole bases rewards on difficulty of content.

The current tuning and rewards for Delves would say otherwise if you compare them to M+ and Raids.

[Debbyfrowner-thrall]

@Deathsbounty-area-52

as a m+ player i really never notice the “OMG THE TIMER” thingy…

If you play smart, know the mechanics, hit your buttons and minimize death… the timer kinda is irrelevant?

The timer needs to go at least in lower keys. Bring it back on like 10’s