Initially though that wound was going to be a single person or possibly two with Night Elf leadership.
Killing Malfurion and/or Tyrande was never part of the plan for the War of the Thorns. It may have been part of Sylvanas’ plan, but the official strategic goal was to capture Teldrassil and force conflict within the Alliance over whether to commit forces to retaking it.
Saurfang’s goal was never the destruction of Kaldorei culture (he, not being a sociologist, can be excused for not realizing the full cultural impact of even a relatively humane occupation because such a thing HAS NEVER HAPPENED anywhere in the lore).
We can only speculate as to Sylvanas’ overarching goal, because they explicitly have not told us on a meta level what it actually is- only teased that it exists, and that it will not be good for everyone.
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I mean. No. I know we hate to evoke real world comparisons here, but the actions of 1940s Germany got the word coined so I feel its fair to bring in for examinations regarding the use of the word. Germany’s plan and course of action was not the “elimination” of the Jewish people from the “world”. It was the targeted scourging of them from Germany. It was not an attempt at causing their extinction. The stated intent was to rid Germany of what their leadership was advertising as an Other group that they claimed was actively working to harm them. The targeted holocaust of a religious or ethnic group.
I mean, being extra literal with its etymology, its “racial killing”. The same “-cide” in “pesticide”. Extinction is not a required component of the word.
Now for highlight reel:
Her whim was the targeted killing of a racial and/or ethnic group. She did genocide on a whim.
I am aware Blizzard has tried out conflicting presentation to muddle the story a bit, as well as provide different perspectives and viewpoints along the timeline of events. As far as I’ve ever been able to tell, you do this before we go in and do our Darkshore event stuff. My impression remains that Sylvanas sent in the orcs and crew ahead of her genocidal cleanup crew as part of Blizzard’s stated “Plausible deniability” angle they have with her character.
Still, the topic question is “Was it a genocide?” and less “Are the Horde all aware they committed a genocide?”
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Anyone that knows what genocide means knows it’s not one.
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Isla de Genocide
It’s a meaning that cannot be found except by those who already know what it is.
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Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves.
(ripped from Wikipedia for time’s sake, please forgive.)
To me, this is the most important element when deciding if something is defined genocide. If I so much as fart in a room full of ‘group x’ to demoralize them with the intent of eventually annihilating ‘group x’ then it’s a genocidal act. Even if no one dies, or even if they like the smell of my fart, and ask me to do it again.
Otherwise, most wars and killing are “genocide” because you are killing a group “in part” even if you kill just one person. Just like if you were to circumstantially kill every member of an ethnic group, for reasons that had nothing to do with their ethnicity. To me that’s not genocide, any more than police arresting a minority group member for robbing a convenience store is institutional racism.
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I’m pretty sure Saurfang’s original stated plan that he created was to kill the leaders, and then have a huge pile of leaderless docile civilians as hostages. (So honoraboo!)
That’s actually where Sylvanas and Saurfang diverge. Saurfang thinks it doesn’t matter if they kill the leaders if they have hostages. Sylvanas seems to assume that Saurfang understands that at least one of the leaders need to be killed because Tyrande and Malfurion are too dangerous together… but that turns out not to be the case. Saurfang thinks Sylvanas is just containing Malfurion so he can’t effect the outcome of the battle, but Sylvanas is out to eliminate him as a threat permanently.
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Isn’t it ironic that in submitting to his “honor” he let furion live, which may have saved him from a pissed tyrande, but cost him his honor as he watched a city burn.
Had he of finished furion, he may have died to tyrande, but would have his honorable death in combat to her. Or at least have been able to go on with the occupation of teldrasil and ultimately left the horde more honorable.
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In terms of sheer narrative flow, you’re not wrong, but there is no world in which Saurfang is responsible for Sylvanas’ choices.
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I wish it was.
Please show me where I’m incorrect in my statement. “No, you’re wrong,” isn’t an argument.
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I wouldn’t have used that word NECESSARILY, however Anduin does, and obviously Blizzard’s point was that it did have very high civilian casualties.
The player character disobeys their commander and does so. Saurfang’s orders were to capture them for interrogation.
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I mentioned exactly why in your thread you self promoted earlier. Others did as well. It has been mentioned and debated in this thread for hours. I have mentioned it various times as have others. Feel free to read it again if you can’t recall.
You seem to think Anduin’s every opinion and thought is objective narrative truth - many here agree with you. Though that is not the case.
The words have been quoted - all you do is extrapolate nonsense that isn’t there. Lengthy verbose perversions that mock interpretation do not change the narrative - though you pretend it does.
I wish a coherent argument came out of that. I was looking forward to some actual debate, but you somehow found an even longer way to say “No, you’re wrong.”
No you didn’t. You:
No, no one replied to it in the other thread:
No, I don’t. He’s a kid. Of all the faction leaders, I probably value his views compared to objective truth the least.
EDIT: Well, actual leader-leaders. Probably not including Jastor and definitely not Sylvanas.
However, that passage is not from Anduin’s perspective, as I’ve explained and as you’ve yet to properly explain otherwise.
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The “this” Anduin never expected is the genocide he is reflecting on.
But I have seen you try and twist these simple lines into some metaphysical third person narrative that conveniently fits your bias. When it is clearly the author describing Anduin’s perspective.
If the book said it as an objective narrative point - I would not argue. But it does not. I just dont get why people have the need to warp facts like you do.
And yes - this point has been made many many times in your thread and in this thread. Dismiss it if you will - but your point has been addressed many times.
I’m not warping anything.
All of the Wowpedia mods agree, it seems most of the people here agree, and you’re the only person I’ve encountered to have serious issues with what seems to most everyone else to be obvious.
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Now thats not true.
Even in your old thread some other folks disagreed with you.
Saying I am the only person who you encountered that disagrees is just more dishonest hyperbole from you.
Your own thread that you linked had a couple other folks who disagreed.
We’re going to debate this forever aren’t we?
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