[Warrior] Arms and Fury both need help


(Drezwazluz) #161

It’s weird that it’s not more popular then in rated content. Almost like it’s not actually nearly as broken when more than just the warrior are competent.


(Bobbydígital) #162

i really wanna love meat cleaver. what if it increased the amount of max. charges +amount generated to spend less globals on WW in sustained AoE


#163

I’m guessing things like disarm, spell reflect, shield block, shield wall, d stance with sword and board for block, shield barrier, imp hamstring, etc would be pretty helpful for arms ability to survive… All these abilities seem familiar some how?


(Curoar) #164

These would largely assit in PVP, but still not do a whole lot that PvP talents don’t already achive (Leaving warriors that either just deal damage or hard peel with Disarm/Stuns). I don’t PvP on my Warrior anymore, so take my comments with a grain of salt when it comes to that area.

In PvE these might help us with survivability, but largely would have little to no impact outside of Shield Wall as another defensive CD.


(Bobbydígital) #165

i wouldn’t mind being able to do some blade dance-esque shenanigans with spell reflect but there aren’t a whole lot of things worth reflecting outside of bosses. would be fun on lord and lady waycrest and the ML bosses but otherwise, meh?

you could probably get one cast per trash pack depending on week, maybe more if we had mass spell reflect.

if we got MSR, would need to reflect all spells for a short duration because one wind or water blast from a random mob isn’t anything to go crazy over.

i think fury is gonna be in a good spot with the removal of reaping but arms really just seems to be in the worst possible place for a spec, that being not having any real identity. it’s no fun coming up with suggestions for something that may be unrecognizable in 9.0


(Varrow) #166

I mean, even with Reaping Fury is still in the top tier of damaging dealing. That will only get higher when Reaping damage pad waves go away. You’re still going to have the same problem that Fury brings nothing to the group besides that damage.

We can’t offer skips like Rogues. We don’t have good CC and uber survival like a Havoc DH. We don’t have a battle rez and general utility like a balance druid. We don’t have any immunities.

I do think Mass Spell Reflect could be a really cool option to have back. When you look back at WoD when we had MSR it had a lot of cool little uses that would be beneficial without being overly strong.

I also REALLLLYYY wish they would consolidate the mobility/defensive/utility talent rows to be the same thing. Having bounding stride compete against warpaint is dumb. Having Double time compete against storm bolt is dumb. There could be A LOT done there to shore up warrior and also just have the talent rows make more sense.

For Arms I think the kit still isn’t that bad, and huge issue there is the spec is tuned like actual garbage. It’s also much, much harder for arms to shine in random groups. In coordinated groups Arms still has some very strong burst potential (especially if tuned up) but that’s very hard to pull off in random pugs which only makes the current tuning of arms even worse.


(Bobbydígital) #167

maybe i just hate the arms kit then.

i can’t shake the feeling it’s going to get an overhaul on par with fury in the next expac and that kinda cuts the knees out of any suggestion.

i really don’t know what we could get to make us more attractive for small group content tho. we won’t see an immunity, i would bet the house on that. stormbolt baseline would bring us to the stun table but everyone’s already left that because it DRs very fast.

spell reflect seems like the only real way for us to contribute something while staying in that “warrior” lane but it’ll just be consumed by the 99 spells every trash pack has.

maybe a group-wide spell dmg immunity/damage reduction? not a whole lot of that going on in keys tho; generally just the tank getting casted at.

intimidating shout needs to not be a button that may or may not cause a wipe as well.


(Varrow) #168

Yeah we won’t get an immunity, and I also think that would be a poor direction to take anyway. We need something that’s different.

A glyph for Intim Shout (like we used to have) would be great so that mobs would stand still instead of running into Africa. I still like Mass Spell Reflect also if it’s duration based (3-4 seconds) instead of only a single spell.

I’d also like to mention Rallying Cry. Not only should it be off the GCD, but it should do something a little extra. I think you could sell it with an ignore pain functionality built into it. Not only would it give you the extra health, but you’d also absorb 90% of the next X amount of damage. The extra health is much more effective in raids because you almost always have other raid cooldowns back it up. If Rally was more useful in small group content (maybe a slightly shorter cooldown too) combined with mass spell reflect and our utility/mobility talent options making more sense all of a sudden you are looking at a much more desirable warrior while only adding a single ability to our kit.


(Varrow) #169

Arms does need something more though. Fury is still in a better spot all around.

I’d like to see d-stance go back as a baseline ability for arms. I’d also like to see the damage penalty be slightly delayed. Say it only takes effect after 4-5 seconds. I understand the reason for needing the penalty in something like PvP, but you should be rewarded for awareness in PvE and being able to swap stances effectively for dangerous abilities. If you stay in D-stance for more than a few seconds in PvE you’ll eat the damage penalty. I also proposed a duration that is shorter than the cooldown swap because it probably needs it no matter what to make it balanced, but if you are paying attention 2 seconds of a damage penalty is a lot different than 6 seconds.

I also think Die by the Sword’s cooldown is far too long. It’s a good cooldown, but too long between being able to use it.


(Bobbydígital) #170

rally granting leech seems like a no-brainer

would go from being an actual setback to a way to save the group on grievous weeks

should IV be baseline or gone? i don’t want to play a class that still has that thing on the talent tree. it’s such a wasted slot. im sure some random player doing world content gets a lot of use out of it but talents like it may as well be a blank spot

it’s DPR is decent tho


(Bobbydígital) #171

AM should be baseline for prot and arms.

the specs just feel bad without the talent. even if other options were tuned higher, AM causing CDs to line up with adds spawning would still make it the best choice.


#172

It was good in legion in Tomb of Sarg


#173

To your pVp comment, warrs have always been about peeling heals and squishies, not just MS and dmg.

To your pVe comment, prolly right for raiding. I’d imagine it would be a lot more useful for M+.

Curoar, your a good dude, been a helpful, positive voice for warrior community for years. But raiders have ruined everything i used to love about arms and by extension, this game. From the removal of S/B macros and stance dancing (was it MoP beta?) to designing/balancing damage and utility around raiding comps. All the unique things you could do as an arms warrior are gone. In its place is a 4-5 button dps rotation and a few utility buttons.


#174

dose it make sense to anyone else that thunderclap being tank only? I always liked using it

was really fond of Disarm and it made bosses with weapons funny


(Bobbydígital) #175

cleave does what thunderclap did with blood and thunder, but we have to talent it

i would enjoy m+ content a lot more if it was baseline. it’s such a fun ability to use imo and one of the most iconic abilities in the game; everyone knows what a cleave is


(Bobbydígital) #176

MoP had stance dancing. we had infinite rage during garrosh WW and thok. the main problem with it was the interface bugging and being unable to swap from your shield set when you cast shield wall.

we were especially hardy tho, and certainly had to lose a few tools. with str granting parry you’d be rocking at least 30% in heroic gear as well as Dstance, wall, ER for fury (can’t remember what it did tbh) and DBTS for both specs.


(Curoar) #177

Thanks. I appreciate that. Its kind of weird though putting it into perspective that I’ve actually been doing this for years.

I agree that Raiders and PVE have been a driving factor of change, specifically with Arms over the last decade of the game. However, I think the changes we pushed for, shined a light on the issues the class as a whole suffered from since its inception.

The biggest being stances, abilities and equipment requirements for spells. Yeah it was really flavorful that a Warrior busts out a shield to up their defensive and reflect a spell, or switched to an offensive stance for more damage when it wasn’t their turn to tank.

But Warriors aren’t the only class in the game. And other classes consistently had to jump through less hoops to do the same thing as a Warrior. Why did we need to reset our swing timer, waste a GCD, and lose a majority of our resources to press shield wall? Meanwhile a Rogue or a Mage could press one button, and do essentially the same thing. That’s not a fair pay off.

I think there’s a lot of inspiration we could take from past iterations of Warriors with things like Defensive & Battle Stance just being baseline again. I also think we can return and have these cool utility or defensive abilities, without the need for things like Stance Dancing and Weapon Swapping.


(Drede) #178

IMO Stances where the best when they where just buffs and we didn’t need to swap to them just to use moves. Weapon Swapping was the worst designed feature of this game ever.

The real problems are they they are so focused on “Spec Identity” that they are splitting hairs when deciding what spec gets what moves.

They need to take a step back and focus on the Core of each class and then expand specializations off of that instead of cutting things away until they fit the idea.

And no, I’m not asking for more moves. I’m saying we need established move sets then add new ones to that when you pick a spec.


(Grilek) #179

Arms suffers from a fundamental design flaw of making bleeds account for such a high % of DPS

If I were on the design team, I’d be instituting lvl 120 talents for EVERY class

For Arms that would be, a heavy hitting alternative to Bash that refunds fury if it Crits.

Coincidentally for fire, it would be a 1.5 cast heavy dot that ignite refreshes … on a 30 second CD

But again… the class design team is either non existent or too effing incompetent to accomplish these tasks


(Bobbydígital) #180

frankly, i would rather arms adopt a blade master style of class fantasy and run with that instead of seeing stances be given more importance

other classes can turn into demons and access a void form and the height of arms fantasy is fight more defensively? i know this is venturing into next expac stuff but i really can’t stand how stuck in the past arms is compared to anything else.