[Warrior] Arms and Fury both need help


#141

Fury and arms really suffer for low utility/survivability, but they also suffer for low dps, but fury only in fights where a lot of mobility is required.

When there will be no more reaping it will always be a problem but of less importance. And in any case it would be enough to nerf the classes that make it too much like rouge, dh, monk. (which would also help casters).


#142

My experience playing Fury at this point is this:

Context: 9/9 Mythic raider, currently rank 7 US Fury Warrior All Star rankings on Warcraftlogs for BoD.

2.1k io in Season 2 Mythic Plus mostly pugging.

Raids:

Single target and cleave fights, I feel pretty competitive. The only times I feel lack luster is on pull burst, or times where other classes can stack 2-3min CD’s. If the fight is long enough, generally I can catch up even though generally execute phase isn’t much different from outside of it. As mostly the highest APM dps spec currently, movement or time off the boss is very very punishing to Fury. You can’t make up the damage loss by having meaningful CD’s so whenever you are unable to attack for over two seconds your damage falls off completely.

Generally you have a lot of sustain throughout a fight as Fury with self healing from Bloodthirst, Leech, Cold Steel, Hot Blood traits, etc. The issue is that you only have one 2min defensive ability that is a 30% DR with self healing. Compare this to your dps counter parts who generally have at least two DR’s on active abilities at lower CD’s and higher DR levels. The other melee dps specs also typically bring an immunity at some level. Either complete immunities like Netherwalk, or magic damage orientated immunities like Cloak of Shadows or Anti-Magic Shield. If you get into trouble as a dps Warrior, you are more than likely going to die or require lots of healer attention. In this current landscape, that would create a high risk, high reward feel of playing a dps Warrior. The issue is that the reward (damage) isn’t high enough to warrant such low utility or survivability. If we’re going to be designed like a glass cannon, then we should have the cannon and not just the glass.

While Warriors do have decent mobility, the difference between other classes is that other than Heroic Leap, our “on demand” mobility requires a target (Charge). Heroic leap is great, but sadly to make it more reliable, it’s really nice to pick the Bounding Stride talent. In progression raids however, unless you specifically need Leap on a lower cooldown, you will almost always have to take War Paint for the survivability. Why you have to choose between a passive DR or a speed utility in the same talent tier I’m not really sure. I think both talents Double Time and Bounding Stride should be baseline.

Mythic Plus:

IF, I can get into groups as Fury, I can do very competitive damage if not beat the other two dps players consistently. Generally the only time you won’t see a Fury Warrior beat the other specs is with very large pulls or packs like reaping. This is because of the capped AoE damage we have with the five target limitation of Whirlwind cleave and the 50% damage penalty. As much as I’d love to say “uncap our AoE damage!” I think it would be an over buff to our damage. With reaping leaving us soon, I don’t really feel as though Fury needs that much help with damage. That being said, I’d like to see something like Rude Interruption come back, giving a damage increase for a successful interrupt. The issue is currently I really feel like I’m creating a dead spot in the group because I offer no utility so it makes building a group that much harder. There’s been times I’ve been in groups where we were really pigeonholed into what classes we could get because I was basically a negative to the group, not a positive. I felt like a dead spot because I couldn’t offer anything.

The real issues come with the utility offered (or not offered) by dps Warriors. Community perception is at play here with other specs living in the spot light, but generally as many other people have pointed out, Warriors are lacking here.

-We don’t have a purge.
-We don’t have an AoE stun.
-We don’t have a long CC ability or out of combat CC (Sap, Repentance, Cage, Incapacitate, etc) that allows you to walk by without aggro’ing the mobs.
-We don’t have an Immunity.
-We don’t have a lot of things generally.

So again this ties into, is our niche the damage? Because even played very well, you don’t completely blow everyone out of the water. You do well, but not that well.

You can talent Stormbolt for a single target stun, generally though, not having Double Time just feels really bad (Like I said it should be baseline).

If I was going to try and fix the utility of dps Warriors I would add just a couple things.

-Give Shockwave to all Warrior specs baseline.
-Make Rallying Cry give group Leech as well.
-Give Shattering Throw to dps Warriors allowing them to debuff a boss or dangerous mob for a short time to take increased damage.
-Potentially look at giving dps Warriors another defensive ability or further play into the glass cannon damage niche and balance for that.


#143

I agree with everything you’ve written, things that I have been saying for a long time.


(Varrow) #144

Good post.

I would emphasize two things.

  1. M+, fury damage is definitely strong when played well in M+. It’s only Reaping, and the complete lack of group usefulness that hurts Fury right now.

  2. Raids, I think Fury is in a pretty good spot and it’s just poor design and some poor tuning also with ranged dps overlords. It’s not that either is really that far off, it’s that both of those things cater in favor of most ranged spec at the moment.


(Bobbydígital) #145

is some of fury’s “defensive toolkit” still supposed to come from the increased health?

would also like to echo the sentiment that, unless grouped with a monk and hunter, dpsing keys as either spec really leaves a sour taste in one’s mouth because you’re really not bringing anything to the table


(Curoar) #146

Any additional effective HP you gain from having a second weapon is generally negligible.

Any failed mechanic or lack of healing might save you a single GCD but you’ll most likely end up dead just as quickly as other DPS, without a defensive CD.


(Picsøu) #147

If only one of the dumbo’s at blizzard could read this and understand all you said Juggslol, that could help us here !

you pointed exactly what we’re all feeling… but they just don’t listen


(Drezwazluz) #148

The problem that you, and so many, seem to fail to grasp is that no. He did not say what everyone is feeling. He said what himself and some others feel. Not nearly all. There’s a lot of feelings about the spec. And you cannot please them all. And anything you do right for one group, will be wrong for all the rest.


#149

= Drezwazluz.


(Drezwazluz) #150

I purposefully did not give my opinion.


(Rougaroux) #151

And thats another stupid statement cause no one should REQUIRE 2 or 3 people to take them down as a dps. Also, ANYONE with 3 healers on them isnt gonna die. You made no point at all.


#152

My post was about my personal experience in the environment I play in. I can’t really speak for other players not playing the same as me. It’s pretty well known that the lower the difficulty, the more freedom you have to play what you like how you like.


#153

How wrong can one person be about the m+ playability of a spec…


(Curoar) #154

While tensions are understandably high for lots of DPS Warriors, i would appreciate it if people in the thread focused around speaking about their experiences and issues they have with Arms or Fury, and less so about the how much you disagree with someone else’s comment or opinion.


(Drezwazluz) #155

Can you expand on this? I feel that’s the simplest courtesy I can ask for.

So a thread of opinions, without any discussion/debate/argument that is what, a circle of people having horrible issues with arms/fury that could potentially be based on false presumptions or issues that come from someplace other than the specs themselves?


#156

Well context is king, most of us are different players in the sense how play time, difficulty level, context choice (PvE, PvP) including people that only raid, or M+, or do solo casual content. The problem with trying to challenge all of those people is that, you don’t “live” in all of those situations. You can’t apply your context and experience to others.

For instance, I’m a mythic raider, I wouldn’t try to assume I know what the experience of someone who’s a more casual normal difficulty raider is. It wouldn’t be the same. How we interpret the game, play the game, and enjoy the game can be and most likely will be completely different. So why would I argue with someone like that’s opinion?


(Drezwazluz) #157

An opinion, in purely subjective context, is not debatable as it is based purely off personal take.

An opinion based on some merit of fact or real basis, can be, as a result, false. A personal opinion, based and formed off a false presumption or incorrect information, is summarily wrong.

You have to take it case by case.


#158

Yeah there are definitely cases where someone could just be playing really poorly regardless of the class/spec they are playing and blame it on the class/spec.


(Bobbydígital) #159

happy with inner rage and sudden death, although i think the latter needs something tied to it during execute phase

furious strikes tho: why the stacking mechanic? is that just a hold over from previous iterations? it’s more of an annoyance than anything else and just hard punishes letting stacks fall. it used to sim slightly better for a much more annoying play style and now it is a trap imo

do you guys run frothing anywhere as well? ik you can do some cool things with bladestorm, SB and it’s dmg modifier but seems like a lot of reaching to delete a reaping pack.


#160

A few? Try every single match? Fury is stupid OP in self healing. Stupid.