[Warrior] Arms and Fury both need help


(Varrow) #101

I would add that I still hate Rallying Cry on the GCD.

What good gameplay is this providing by forcing you to interrupt your damage rotation (or prevent you from reacting in time because you are hitting your damage buttons) just to put up a long cooldown raid buff that isn’t even necessarily that strong.


(Bobbydígital) #102

arms mechanics are working against it. you can’t have a warrior using overpowering strikes and planning to take down an opponent as long as rage is a thing because we have to be balanced around not being able to go up to someone and dump 100 rage worth of globals into them; without bleeds and CS, core rotational abilities would be hitting like trucks.

so the spec has damage shifted so we aren’t able to do such a thing ,however i think this is the wrong way to go about it.

imo, arms shouldn’t have rage as a resource but instead have core rotational abilities with “long” cooldowns that need to be used in sequence, much like the black orc and sword master of WAR, where each attack progressed a stance and the final attack would reset your stance or plan.

Execute shouldn’t be an ability we spam after a %, it should be the final strike in a long series of abilities that the arms warrior has used to debilitate or weaken the enemy.


(Phatymcdaddy) #103

they say they want to make unused talents more exciting all the time =/


#104

I like the sequencing idea, it’s more of a proc based rotation now just so we don’t go rage dry non stop, even that is frustrating in pvp. Arms def needs some major attention, it’s sad that i look forward to a 13 yr old patch model classic to have fun again, i think im going to reside in the fact maybe this season is the casters moment, come 8 2 if we arent given improvement, then im afraid i will be unsubbed. Sad considering what a great game and fun it has been at times, but honestly it seems that blizzard may have cut too many, or just don’t have the right ppl in development, the effort just isn’t there to warrant paying a sub for a ftp steam quality game.


(Varrow) #105

For the love of god I hope some of this going to be addressed in 8.2. Not only utility, but also gameplay and balance.

The arms execute rotation is in sore need of help gameplay wise. It’s slow paced,it’s boring, it’s not even that strong.

Really hope talent balance is getting looked at also.


(Drede) #106

Ya ever feel like you wish they would cram Arms and Fury together so you could have a fully flushed out spec?


(Bobbydígital) #107

i just want arms to feel as good as fury.

it doesn’t really have any identity. the only claim to fame are PUG leaders thinking we have a powerful execute phase.


(Jibbles) #108

Try to keep criticism to what about the spec feels wrong, don’t just say we suck buff us.


(Varrow) #109

I really hope we see some work on the specs here in 8.2. A few wish list items I’d like to share.

ARMS

  1. Execute phase. For the love of god please make this more exciting and powerful for Arms. Arms is tuned like doodoo at the moment, but execute is still lacking even if the spec was tuned up overall. The spec gets even slower in execute due to the multitude of nerfed rage mechanics or bug fixes related to rage. You completely ignore the signature ability of Mortal Strike. You are sitting around so much with nothing to hit just waiting for auto attacks to land. This plays awfully at the moment, and it’s not even strong on top of that.

The feel and pace of pre-execute rotation I think feels pretty good. But execute desperately needs love.

  1. Sweeping Strikes - this needs a change or effect for its gcd use. I’d also like to see the uptime on this increased slighly somehow. The fact that Sweeping and Colossus Smash have misaligned cooldowns is also very annoying.

I still really dislike our Mastery design and wish the spec would go back to being focused on our abilities instead of huge amounts of damage coming from an incredibly boring DoT that has no interaction at all with anything in the spec.

FURY

Fury is a great spec. I really want to just focus on two talent rows here. The level 15 row and the level 90 row.

-Level 15: War Machine. The auto attack bonus needs to be buffed, it’s simply not competitive at all. The move speed bonus should also stack with other move effects (most notably enrage) and I think it should last longer like it did in Legion.
Fresh Meat - Just kinda boring, and weak. Also not very competitive.

-Level 90. I think we have a missed opportunity here in making both Dragon Roar and Bladestorm interact with the specs in different ways. Meat Cleaver is just bad and probably needs to be redesigned honestly. But Dragon Roar and Bladestorm should interact with the spec.

-I’m a pretty big fan of how Gathering Storm and Bladestorm interact, but you can only take advantage of the GS buff when you have the rage bonus from Recklessness. Without Reck the buff is meaningless since you can’t get an additional Rampage in the buff window. I think it would be cool to see Bladestorm increase your movement speed (blademaster fantasy) and also your rage generation. I also think this should still simply grant enrage to open up the usability of it. It would also help it play better with random lag and what have you and also in utilizing buffs around it.

Dragon Roar - Double down on the burst emphasis of this ability and I think it should interact with Enrage. For example: When used while Enraged the Roar will echo 2 seconds later for 75% damage and rage generation.

-A small note on the level 75 row. Carnage is OP, but also provides GREAT positives for gameplay in the fluidity of the spec. I think the tuning should be better, but Carnage still in the lead. I also think Frothing Berserker rage threshold should be lowered to 90. Wasting rage feels awful, and you often find your self at 90-94 rage and having to waste a lot of time and a long non enraged gcd to overcap your rage and finally hit rampage.

-Massacre is just god awful under the BfA design. I love the idea floated around of it granting free rampages again which also has a cool interaction with Sudden Death. The Ayala/Massacre gameplay was quite a lot of fun in Legion, even if it was only competitive in Emerald Nightmare.

Finally. PLEASE TAKE RALLYING CRY OFF THE GCD. It feels awful, there is no cool decision making. If it needs used, it gets used. It does nothing but cause interruption.


(Juggs) #110

I miss Sweeping Strikes being a passive on a talent vs this iteration. Arms was all about cleave, but having that SS cleave in a window and on the GCD just feels bad.


#111

I’m in a strange place this expansion vs Legion.

I started playing Legion late, when Tomb came out. I decided to roll a Warrior for Legion coming from being a Rogue main for 10+ years.

I wanted to play Arms because I always liked the fantasy of the spec. Having a big two-hander that hits really hard and having insane execute. I just couldn’t get into Fury for some reason (not counting starting late and not having some key items like Legendaries, Convergence of Fates, etc). Even still, I just wasn’t a fan of how Fury felt.

This expansion, it completely flipped. I started Uldir as Arms and it was mostly strong. There was the time when Executioner’s Precision was super strong but had a catch. You could only get this trait through the M+ weekly cache or on PvP gear. I had none, so until it was removed it just felt bad not having any of the trait. I felt like I was under performing and it was mostly out of my control.

I started to sim how I would fair as Fury and who would have thought it was simming higher. I made the switch and haven’t went back. I actually really enjoy Fury now and the fast pace of the spec. It’s nice to be able to fill every global with at least something. Never feeling resource starved just makes the spec feel so much more smooth compared to Arms (or even my long time spec Assassination). I messed around with Arms a little here and there and I think for the time being, Fury just ruined it for me. I just can’t stand going back to being rage starved or having limited cleave windows with the ability that lets it happen being on the GCD while also having stricter positional requirements. Some of the newer Arms traits helped with rage and pacing, Striking the Anvil, and Crushing Assault mostly. The change to execute and the bug fixes that nerfed it as well just really make execute feel lack luster. The other fact that typically the best trait to stack, Test of Might, just feels out of place when you think of fundamentally how the spec should play. The trait effectively has you using Bladestorm, the iconic spec damage CD, outside of your Colossus Smash damage window. This should be your burst window where you do large damage because you’ve shattered your enemies defenses. Instead, you just try to dump as much rage as possible and use Bladestorm after the window has ended. It just fundamentally makes no sense. Gathering Storm is the trait that fits that fantasy better, not Test of Might.

Currently, the only really fight you would ever see Arms getting any play was on Mythic Jaina in earlier progression because you could cheese cleave her elemental with Test of Might traits and the Collateral Damage talent to achieve very high strength and high refunds of rage. However, this also meant that in phase one and two you did very poor damage and for the most part it was just miserable. With the recent nerfs to the fight and higher item levels of most raids, this strat isn’t as viable because of all the passive cleave on the elemental will most likely kill it before you kill Jaina if a warrior was cleaving it as well.

I really want Arms to be good again, but I don’t think just having the numbers being better will make me want to play it again. I just doesn’t feel smooth on top of it traditionally being a slow spec. If it’s clunkiness and general downtime from being rage starved was reduced it could be a really fun spec. The iconic execute phase is in a really sore spot as well. It’s typically a boring rotation and generally being rage starved for a majority of it just doesn’t feel very good. It’s supposed to be the Arms (and Fury, but I feel it’s even more Arm’s niche) time to shine. This is where the Arms Warrior should be unmatched and contribute the most to the group but sadly, it just doesn’t. It used to be the time you’d see Arms climb the meters and even top them in some cases because of the strength of it’s execute.

If there was a way to make Arms feel as smooth and well paced like Fury while also reviving it’s execute niche, I think we’d be in a lot better place for the spec.

As for Fury, I feel that it’s biggest weakness is it’s capped AoE and lack of actual dps cooldowns compared to other classes with two and three minute cooldowns.

Dps Warriors in generally are severely lacking in utility when compared to the basically “melee 2.0” DH and even rogues. If raw damage is the niche of Warrior then those numbers need to be increased, if not, then some utility needs to be breathed into the two dps specs.


#112

feels like this thread has fallen upon deaf blizzard ears once again.

Using this thread as the main state of warriors discussion thread, I would like to re-emphasise the lack of utility by re-posting this list of utility skills for every melee class out there.

Warriors’ utility have VERY little impact as compared to other classes. Yes, there are other specs like feral druid who also lack utility. The most ridiculous thing is that warriors’ battle shout is replaceable by scrolls. Most groups would rather bring another MDPS that have utility whilst they use attack power scrolls. Like a demon hunter’s chaos brand/windwalker’s mystic touch which are IRREPLACEABLE by scrolls. Our utility toolkit is severely underwhelming and is EASILY replaced by many melee classes out there.

If I missed out any of the skills, my apologies but this is the best I could come up with off the top of my head + a little wowhead referencing.

Death Knights:

  1. Death grip (basically an interrupt as well)
  2. HUGE slow from D&D
  3. Asphyxiate (Single Target Stun)
  4. Ranged interrupt
  5. Control undead
  6. BRESS

Demon Hunters:

  1. Chaos Nova AOE Stun
  2. Chaos Brand 5% Magic damage debuff (IRREPLACEABLE by scrolls)
  3. Darkness
  4. Consume Magic dispel
  5. Imprison CC
  6. Ranged interrupt
  7. Fel Eruption Single target stun
  8. Spectral sight
  9. Netherwalk to soak bad stuff if needed

Rogues:

  1. Shroud
  2. Sap CC
  3. Gouge (basically a single target stun)
  4. Blind CC
  5. Between the eyes (basically a single target stun)
  6. Distract
  7. Tricks of the trade
  8. Vanish to perform skips during dungeons
  9. Cloak (to soak bad stuff if needed)

Windwalkers:

  1. Leg Sweep AOE Stun
  2. Tigers’ Lust (not frequently used, but still a utility skill if needed)
  3. Ring of Peace
  4. Mystic touch 5% Physical damage debuff (IRREPLACEABLE by scrolls)
  5. Paralysis CC
  6. Detox (Poison and disease dispel)
  7. Able to Ress (Not a major utility but still useful to have)

Retribution Paladins:

  1. Greater Blessing of wisdom
  2. Blessing of protection
  3. Blessing of freedom
  4. Cleanse Toxins (Poison and disease dispel)
  5. Great offheals (Lay on hands etc.)
  6. Wake of ashes AoE Stun (good for reaping)
  7. Repentence if needed for CC or Blinding Light
  8. Hammer of justice (Single target stun)

Enhancement Shamans:

  1. Tremor Totem
  2. Capacitor Totem (AoE stun)
  3. Purge
  4. Earth Elemental
  5. Cleanse spirit (remove curses)
  6. Earth Bind totem
  7. Ranged interrupt with reduced CD
  8. Bloodlust/Heroism

Survival Hunter:

  1. Intimidation (Single target stun)
  2. Freezing trap CC
  3. Misdirect
  4. Feign Death for dungeon skips
  5. Misdirect
  6. Sonic Blast to purge
  7. Tar Trap (AoE Slow)
  8. Camouflage stealth
  9. Binding Shot
  10. Turtle Stance (to soak bad stuff if needed)
  11. Bloodlust/Heroism

Feral Druid: (Another class severely lacking utility)

  1. Typhoon/Mass Entangle/Bash
  2. Soothe
  3. Poison Dispel
  4. Average offheals if needed
  5. BRESS

Warriors:

  1. Stormbolt (Single target stun at the sacrifice of mobility)
  2. Intimidating Shout (AoE Fear)
  3. Piercing Howl (AoE Slow)
  4. Rallying Cry
  5. Battle Shout (REPLACEABLE BY SCROLLS)

(Curoar) #113

I don’t believe it would take a lot to improve Warrior utility, to a point where we’re considered useful, especially in Mythic +.

A few suggestions off the top of my head.

  • Bring Shockwave back as a choice for DPS Warriors.

  • Allow Rallying cry to also grant some Leech, or a reduced amount of damage taken in addition to extra health.

  • Bring back the Vigilance, Safeguard, Mass Spell reflect Options for additonal defensive support.

  • Allow for intimidating shout to keep mobs in place without us having to commit to an Azerite trait.

There’s certainly a lot that can be done to make DPS warriors more attractive in terms of utility.


(Varrow) #114

These two are the most interesting to me. Vigilance and Safeguard (cough Intervene) were both useful, and in the choice of Safeguard/Intervene it emphasized the mobility aspect of a warrior and being able to use party/raid members to position yourself. Vigilance would just be a great tool to have.

I like Rally (plz take off the GCD) but it feels so weak outside of somewhat higher end raiding. It would be great if there was some additional effect on this that made it a more useful group cooldown.


#115

Yes, these suggestions to me are extremely viable. It won’t make us overpowered, but it makes warriors special in its own way.

Right now there is nothing a warrior brings to the table that is worth noting, nothing special.


(Varrow) #116

Just spitballing a few things for rally to make it more universally good.

  1. Reduce duration of loss of control effects by 30% while Rally is active
  2. For 4 seconds after Rallying Cry is activated damage taken is reduced

Also plays into the warrior being a battlefield commander and “rallying” the troops in a crucial moment. Push through pain, shatter the bonds that hold you. GLORIOUS!!!


(Bobbydígital) #117

we will never get a raid wide DR but granting rally some leech is a great idea imo

would love having mass spell reflect back as dps


(Varrow) #118

Could have just stopped there, Blizzard stance on class design fairly clear this expansion lulz


(Bobbydígital) #119

cleave being baseline would make those pulls without CS or bladestorm a lot more enjoyable.

right now getting to a trash pull without either of those makes you feel like a wet noodle. massacre + sweeping makes it feel less terrible but on weeks where trash doesn’t live long, some pulls can feel very awkward.

i also think whirlwind could use a look. the amount of times we use it without FoB isn’t a whole lot. assuming whatever AoE pull you’ve done survived the WB/BS burst, you can probably start cleaving executes soon and WW remains untouched.


(Drezwazluz) #120

What weeks are there where trash “doesn’t live long” to the point that you don’t have WB for every pull.