[Warrior] Arms and Fury both need help


(Grilek) #181

Try playing a fire mage… I feel your pain… because I switched to fire FROM Arms…

And then I quit


#182

I completely disagree with you on stances and weapon swapping. The ability to equip different weapons to gain different abilities should be an unique feature for warriors.


(Drede) #183

Requiring more gear and to constantly have to rewrite macros to do your basic utilities is bad design no matter how you look at it.


(Bobbydígital) #184

maybe last expac there was potential with weapon swapping artifacts but no other class required a macro to use its defensive abilities, as well as hoping the UI didn’t bug and stuck you with your shield set


#185

That, to me, was a failure implementation, not a core design flaw. Those restrictions should’ve been lifted to make them more equitable.

Know what real crap design is? A few st dmg buttons, a few aoe, some dmg cds, a def cd , maybe a utility button or 2 if your lucky. Thats what you have now. Garbage tier class design.

Your not wrong. Weapon swapping/stance dancing would need modern ui support and development time investment. They do already have gear set swapping ui support tho.

Hell, I wouldnt even care if they gave dstance the “shield” cosmetic it has already and gave back the buttons it used to have. Make it a talent like Glad stance was for christ sakes . It could take the place of that ravager garbage. Call it Advanced Tactics or Tactical Training or whateva. Maybe you could choose different weps/stances for different skill sets according to what content your doing. They could make it useless in raiding for all I care so ppl like Drede, that dont want wep/stance to return, wouldn’t feel obligated to use it.

A master of weapons has a very tactical feel to it. Arms is supposed to be the “tactical” warrior spec. Could even implement that Blade Master style you want into a wep/stance.


(Bobbydígital) #186

even with stance dancing arms never felt like a tactical master, you were just having to use stances to get maximum output while other classes didn’t need to.

imo, in my time spent playing, arms has never felt tactical. furthermore, “tactical warrior” is probably about as vague a description one can have for a spec. prot is tactical, a fury warrior cleaving siege breakers into enraged bladestorm is tactical.

ill never turn down dstance because i think it’s a great button but macroing berserker or battle stance into abilities wasn’t battlefield tactician brained.


#187

I wouldn’t call using a CD into a few rotational abilities tactical. That’s maximizing burst aoe dps. Tactical is more than doing damage. That’s the real disconnect when discussing design with ppl that are "raiders ". Everything revolves around dps, mainly because pve is static, scripted combat. Your main contribution will always be your dps. Some fights may favor a certain classes utility, but if your spec is top dmg , it’ll be played regardless. Because of that, other facets of the game suffer.

Whether you like wep/stance swapping or not, the game is better off with that type of combat than with out it.


(Bobbydígital) #188

why would you want to swap to a sword and shield as your defensive option, severely nerfing your dmg, when other classes can give themselves a complete immunity to all damage while doing insane armor ignoring damage

what is the appeal there besides it might look cool?

A DH has a 100% dodge button that has a cooldown affected by haste. when abilities like that are floating around, the warrior switching to a shield to stay alive is beyond outdated.


(Curoar) #189

To addon to this, it wouldn’t even be an impossible thing to do visually. We already equip shields when we press defensive stance. Theres no reason we couldnt take it a step further for other spells and effects.


(Glyg) #190

Did you ever think they intentionally make tank dps classes weaker and less valuable than other dps specs? All so that you are more likely to tank, therefore increasing the amount of people who can play 5-man content.

I think this is why they do it. Warrior dps has had bad utility in mythic dungeons since they came out. If it ever changes, it would require new talent trees, and that wouldn’t happen til a new expansion.

They even took shockwave away to make dps Wars intentionally worse in BFA!


(Drezwazluz) #191

If you ignore pretty much every class with a tank spec, sure.


(Glyg) #192

Like what? DH only has 2 specs; it’s naturally limited already. Druid can fulfill any role; it’s not like people are begging for ferals or boomkins. Monks can fulfill any role except ranged; windwalker does have an aoe stun but I’ve never been outdpsed by one. Every plate class is terrible in mythics compared to leather.

It’s not a coincidence. It’s a conspiracy!


(Drezwazluz) #193

Hahahahahaahaha.

Either you’re talking PvP, or you’re under a rock. A or B.

And havoc has been upper mid tier to meta for both raid, m+ and PvP pretty much since it was released.

WW brings almost as much utility as dh/rogue, is currently one of the most powerful m+ specs, and the sole reason it’s not more used in raids is the extreme power of dotcleave in both current raids, and the fact that both BrM and MW are both extremely strong.

Unholy is hands down the strongest spec in three of ten dungeons, ret is very powerful and only slightly behind ww/dh, and fury has very good power, lacking only in utility.


#194

Warriors are in a weird place right now. Our tank spec is one of the best tanks in the game, but our DPS specs are kind of meh. Fury is fun to play, but our numbers could use a bit of tweaking and our talent tree needs a rework (way too many dead talents and stuff is all over the place). Arms is in a very sad state, and needs far more then just a simple numbers tuning.

The biggest issues with Fury, to me anyways, are our AOE cap and the way downtime negates our damage output. Our lack of utility is also important, but fixing the other two will help resole that a bit. The first one can be fixed very easily: remove the target limit on the whirlwind buff and up the transferred damage to 65% percent. This will allow us to properly cleave large groups, and also pull better damage while cleaving, possibly allowing us to cement a role as a sustain AOE spec.

The negative effects of our downtime is the other major issue. We are a snowball spec, and we need to be doing something to keep our momentum going. Even missing one GCD due to mechanics hurts us immensely, as that messes with our ability to generate resources and run the spec. This is also a fairly easy change: extend the duration of our effects by a couple second. The 10 second of Reck currently feels too limiting, and the usefulness of the ability will skyrocket if it lasted 12 or 16 second instead. Increase rage to a 6 second duration, and suddenly having to step away to dodge a mechanic doesn’t suck as much.

Utility for Fury should be something based around the fact that Fury is based on the Norse Berserker archtype. A couple ideas are: Berserker Rage applies the immunities to all allies within 10 yards, as the sight of the madman drives our allies to push themselves a bit further. Intimidating Shout causes the targets to stand in shock for the duration instead making them run in fear as our cry of anger and rage shakes them to the core. Heck, even granting a limited version of our enrage to nearby allies would give use some useable utility.

Arms is an entirely different beast, with a host of problems. The main one is that it doesnt really have a class focus. They keep saying that Arms is supposed to be the tactical fighter, but they dont give us tools that fit that theme. To me, a tactical fighter is one who studies their foes, learns their weaknesses and then uses those against their target. It’s a fighter who lets their opponent tire themselves out and then decimates them. Mohammad Ali, with his Rope a Dope fighting style, is a fairly good example of this. Nothing about Arms feels this way. Hence my proposed change:

Replace the Arms Mastery with the following: Exposed Weaknesses - When you damage an opponent with core abilities, a percentage of that damage is stored (up to a specific cap). Execute consumes the stored damage, and deals bonus damage based on the amount consumed. To go with this, Execute gets a bit of a rework - it gets lower base damage, costs less rage, has the health requirement removed and applies a stacking debuff (caps after x stacks) if it fails to kill the target. The debuff increases the damage the target takes from the Arms warrior, and remains until the fight ends. This will give the spec a slightly more tactical feel. Do you go for stronger executes everytime or do weaker ones earlier on to allow you to hit for more damage faster?


#195

Warrior Arms needs an urgent buff or rework on the spec, it’s terrible to play on pve I have an acceptable lvl and I’m refused even for miticas + 0, please give a little attention to the warrior arms, and on the fury raise a little the damage will help you stay with a stable dps


#196

Warning, Drezwazluz troll incoming.


#197

Unfortunately, it is way too late for any significant Arms changes. There has hardly been any class changes this patch cycle, and it’s equally sparse on the 8.2 PTR, what makes you think that Arms will ever receive anything major?

The best we can hope for is it to be fixed via some strong azerite traits, and general damage aura tuning. Then take the bandaid off (hopefully) with patch 9.0 reworks. Though I’m not really optimistic about those either. They did well with Fury in BfA, yes, but I see it more as an anomaly, considering how many other specs were butchered.


(Culin) #198

I’m a little concerned that with no class iteration on the horizon, DPS Warriors are going to relegated to leveling specs in the future.

I feel a utility and mild damage buff is all that is required to make us relevant to the content for the rest of the expansion. Reintroducing Shockwave would solve many issues for mythic+, albeit we’d still be behind Havoc Demon Hunters.

I’m fine not being “meta”, but what I do want is to be viable for all levels of play in the game. I’m merely a 2500 ioscore Warrior, but my team was struggling to complete 18’s and 19’s in time, and once I swapped to Protection and our Brewmaster went Windwalker, we were timing them easily. Our first Atal’dazar 20 the next night felt like a 15 or 16.

It’s frustrating that no matter how hard I try, my preferred specs come up short due to conservative class rebalance.


(Drezwazluz) #199

The only thing fury doesn’t really struggle with is numbers, actually.

Again, our talent trees is one of the better designed ones. We have three rows that all see change and situational use.

No, for God’s sake, no.

To be utterly broken and would be an asinine change.

You’re right, but for the wrong reasons. Downtime hurts fury, but it’s not resource generation. One GCD does not “hurt us immensely” Rather, we’re a sustain spec. Moment to moment, we do very similar damage, regardless of CDs or not. Other specs will burst extremely high with 2, 3, and 4 min CDs, but drop off massively outside them. Fury has very little drop off. The trade off is, other specs losing uptime during their “downtime” is losing significantly less per second than fury, who doesn’t really have “downtime” periods. We’re on, or we’re not. CDs don’t affect that.

Other specs suffering a loss of uptime, from mechanics or movement, during their major CDs is worse per second as it is for fury. The difference is that it’s only 20-30 seconds for other specs, while it’s all the time for fury.

You’re 377. I wouldn’t invite you either.


#200

No fury need a dps boost.

No so many talent are Death.

Take it out for everyone or put it to everyone. Just two weights two sizes.

Like rouge, dh, monk ecc.