[Warrior] Arms and Fury both need help


(Curoar) #1

I usually save these kinds of posts for big patch feedback, but I feel with how BfA has been going we need go have a talk about DPS Warriors.

For those who don’t know me, my name is Curoar, and I’ve run the Arms Warrior PVE sticky since patch 5.1. I’ve been playing since vanillia and generally have completed most high end PVE content.

This post is going to talk about two issues. Arms Warrior’s lack of overall damage, and both Specs lack of utility in raids and M+.

Arms Warrior at the moment are outshined in all fights in BoD. Our single target is one of the lowest in the game, and even our strength (Burst AoE, and two target cleave) is completely outshined by Ret paladins, Warlocks, and a lot of other specs. There’s no damage scenario currently where Arms Warriors shine. In uldir we had our cleave and long execute phases that helped us remain competitive. With 8.1, our nerfs to both single target (Removal of Executioner’s Precison) and cleave (nerf to sweeping strikes, and warbreaker)

Arms Warriors flat out need an overall damage buff, if we’re to remain relevant in BoD, and new raids moving forward. There’s also the issues of talent stagnation, but that’s more of an 8.2 thing.

The second issue is the fact that both specs have no desirable utility for M+. With Mythic + being a strong tool for gearing, our primary source for Titanium Residium, and an overall enjoyable activity, both specs struggle to find a spot in groups.

Warriors currently have Battle Shout (Replaced by Scrolls), Rallying Cry (a decent CD for Raids, but lackluster in a smaller group environment), Intimidating Shout (At best and unreliable spell interrupt), and stormbolt if talanted. Compared to our other DPS counterparts the best thing we offer is a single target stun with a lengthy cooldown.

We have no long term CC, like hex or polymorph. We have no offensive or defensive dispels. We have no group stun or way to safety disable multiple foes. We have no way to help our teammates skip past trash. All of utility we offer is quickly outshined and replaced by other classes.

This might work for DPS Warriors if our damage was so far ahead of everyone else’s we could justify weak utility, but Fury is middle of the pact, and Arms, well we already went over that.

Both specs need unquie and powerful utility if we’re to remain relevant in Mythic +.


PTR Class and Essence Changes Coming
#2

Hello fellow warrior!

Yes I agree with everything you have said. Warriors need to be shown some love.

Like you mentioned, there is no place for DPS warriors in M+ because they bring absolutely nothing to the table compared to other classes which have AOE stuns/CCs etc. and we are easily replaced by battle shout scrolls.

Warriors are seriously due for some improvements.


(Varrow) #3

Just going to drop some other feedback I’ve posted around in this thread. Maybe something will gain traction. But also I agree. Arms performance is not good, and both dps spec have abysmal utility offerings. Fury deserves to have better talent balance, there are actually some cool choices there they simply aren’t balanced.

FURY

This is mostly talents honestly. We have SOOOO many dead talents (a lot like Legion…and many expansions before…) But the spec is definitely fun to play. I just wish some talents were more of an option.

The Carnage Row. Carnage is way too strong, Massacre is pitifully weak. Frothing is probably a good target to rebalance the row. Massacre needs serious help, I actually think it could be really cool if IN ADDITION to the increased execute range you also brought back execute crits giving you a free rampage. Rampage is very fulfilling. I’m afraid that might not be enough, and enforcing the execute specialty by also increasing execute damage could be cool. This row is important because it actually offers some pretty decent gameplay choices, but Carnage is massively powerful (but also the only thing keeping the spec strong)

Dragon Roar/Bladestorm - When you look ahead to season 2 Bladestorm can absolutely be potent by the extra trait slots giving us access to Gathering Storm in addition to some baseline traits we have to use. That will leave Dragon Roar in a sore spot, and it’s still VERY annoying that Bladestorm does not line up with Recklessness.

War Machine, Fresh Meat, and Meat Cleaver are all pretty bad. Inner Rage at least has some niche uses. Furious Slash isn’t bad really, but I do think most people despise the playstyle and the ability in general (going back for quite some time). Meat Cleaver and Inner Rage are both pretty boring though, so I’m not really upset they aren’t that good.

Siegebreaker feels a little overly dominant, but Reck Abandon and AM are both good and noticeable talent picks. They just typically perform on the weak side or are very, very niche.

Reckless Flurry & Infinite Fury - These are both the snooziest of snooze azerite traits. 100% passive, not noticeable at all. They need to be redesigned. IF is also just flat bad, remember how Juggernaut’s short duration was a terrible idea? Same problem applies to IF.

Unbridled Ferocity - Why is this a flat proc chance instead of PPM? The trait feels awesome, the RNG feels horrible.

While I enjoy Fury a lot, I do fear it’s far too simple and will lose enjoyment the longer we play it. As a longer term goal I think Fury needs an additional mechanic at some point to add variance to the play (Unbridled Ferocity is a good example of this).

ARMS

Arms also has some talent issues, but the big thing I want to look at here is Execute in light of the 8.1 changes. You nerfed the rage refund, you removed Executioner’s Precision, you removed the double refund execute gave while using sweeping strikes. Those are some massive nerfs to Execute, and I think by looking at how hard arms has fallen in Uldir rankings since 8.1 and now even further how it suffers in season 2 and BoD it justifies that something needs to be done here. Additionally Arms single target damage is abysmal and might actually be the worst in the game.

Not only does the gameplay suffer a lot due to rage starvation in execute, but the execute phase isn’t necessarily even that powerful for arms now. Arms is one of the slowest specs in the game, and I don’t feel like that has ever been thought of as fun when you’ve tried it in the past either. This desperately needs to be looked at and pacing adjusted, both for gameplay and for performance.

Talents - pretty simple, arms has some decent talent choices but Ravager and Deadly Calm are both absolutely terrible and need to be redesigned. War Machine again doesn’t seem very useful or good. Sudden Death needs to count the rage to some degree even though it’s free. Not contributing to Anger Management or Tactician combined with the raw ability not being very good makes it a pretty bad talent.

My other wish list, but not really an issue, is to see mastery redesigned to reduce the amount of damage deep wounds contributes to our dps. If you brought it back closer to the original values but added our main abilities? So it increased the damage of Mortal Strike, Execute, Colossus Smash, Bladestorm, and Deep Wounds by X% (would be like 35-40% in high end Uldir gear I think). The spec should be about the main abilities, not a passive bleed DoT.

UTILITY

In the modern game not bringing any utility to your group is pretty poor, and one of the main reasons you don’t see warriors as part of “the meta” IMO.

The only CC we have takes a talent, and it’s only a short single target stun. We have no immunities. Rallying Cry is not usually very useful outside of raids. Arms has basically the worst defensives in the game and zero self heals. Fury has good self heals, but generally mediocre defensives. Battle Shout can be replaced by a scroll.

Looking at the Stormbolt talent row that makes us choose against Double Time (mobility) or our ONLY CC as a pretty mediocre stun. That would be like if Demon Hunters had Chaos Nova as a talent, instead of a talent that simply makes it better. And then also that row they had to take a talent to have two charges of Fel Rush. Sounds kinda dumb doesn’t it? It’s not any better sounding as a Warrior.

I think Arms desperately needs a better defensive toolkit and/or some kind of self heal. It has no utility, it has the worst survivability in the game. That spec better be the lord of all damage if it’s going to be brought to stuff. And it’s definitely not that either right now.

Give Storm Bolt baseline. Make it really strong, like 8 seconds (reduced duration against players, 5 seconds?). That gives warriors a unique and powerful stun to bring to the table.

I think charge is a chance to differentiate the specs a bit. Give Fury double time baseline, to play into the mobility aspect of Fury. Give Arms back charge stun to play into the tactician and exploiting weaknesses. Then Blizzard has to modify the level 30 and 60 rows to make more sense. As others have said it’s dumb to have mobility in multiple talent rows that’s also competing against cc or defensives or whatever. Have the rows make more sense in what they offer.


(Drede) #4

Some small suggestions for Arms. I’m not saying all need to be implemented but any combination could help.

Stormbolt should be baseline and around 10 seconds for Mobs.

Swap Cleave with Sweeping Strikes, Combine Rend with Cleave, and Make Sweeping Strikes work like in Legion.

Make a Passive that grants rage from Bleed Ticks.

Make Overpower give like 10 rage when used.

Let Deep Wounds stack on itself.

Either make Intimidating Shout a good CC or replace it with something else.

Give back Improved Hamstring. If it has to be a move instead of a proc then make it useful.

Add back a Knockback for controlling Mobs.


#5

Frost and unholy dk have been on the waiting list for a long time.


(Juggs) #6

Hi, I’ve been playing Warrior since Tomb of Sargeras at the Mytic raid level.

Here are some observations I’ve noted since then on the class and specs over all.

Fury:

I’ve only played Fury in BFA since the tail end of Uldir when it started to outperform Arms.

The only issues I have with Fury’s damage profile at the moment is the general tuning. If numbers were increased I feel Fury as is would be in a fine spot (outside of talent overhauls). A look at the WW target cap could be an option and maybe giving the spec some choice at a larger CD than just Recklessness as a 1.5min CD compared to most classes having strong 3min and 2min CD’s.

If Arms is supposed to be the Burst AoE/Cleave spec, then Fury should probably have another CD in the form of a 3min CD that is more single target focused.

Arms:

In Legion I was pretty much an Arms one trick. I played Arms for the entire start of BFA and Uldir until it was overtaken by Fury at the end of the tier. The nerfs and bug fixes that affected Execute and the rage refund really hurt the spec’s niche of being the “Execute class/spec”.

It’s hard for me to really have an opinion on BFA’s version of the Executioner’s Precision trait as I wasn’t lucky enough to get an Azerite piece with it and none of the pieces from Uldir had it. The trait definitely bolstered the specs single target, cleave, and general execute profile. Uldir was a raid that was opportune for Arms with it’s ideal set up with burst AoE or sustained Cleave and long execute phases. The current raid does not really have such situations which hurts the spec as when it comes down to pure single target or execute, the spec is lacking. To bring Arms back into the fold and restore it to it’s niche the execute phase would have to be buffed substantially.

It would be interesting to see Warriors provide a shattered defenses debuff on targets that affects the raid or a permanent debuff like Monks/DH’s offer. This could also be for both Arms and Fury, but maybe a raid DPS CD where you shatter the boss’s defenses for however many seconds increasing damage they take.

Overall Class:

As many people are noting, when it comes to raid or Mythic+ there isn’t much reason to bring a Warrior outside of Rallying Cry or Battle Shout (which yes, can be done with a scroll). Without having the raw DPS to warrant low utility there just isn’t a reason to bring a Warrior over other melee like DH or Ret Paladins. I wouldn’t say Warriors should get Storm Bolt baseline, I would say give Shockwave baseline to all Warrior specs. With a low enough CD Shockwave (30-45 seconds) and upper middle of the pack damage, Warriors would sit in a much better place.

Both specs could be buffed by giving them a strong execute as that’s always been the Warrior niche and currently it’s lackluster at best.

TL:DR Suggestions:

Make Double Time Baseline
Make Shockwave Baseline
Emphasis on Execute Niche
Give Raid Wide Damage CD (Shattering Throw)
Give Fury 3min CD (Baseline/Talent)


#7

As shown from OP’s and my post count, we do not frequent the forums. We have only come here because there is an EXTREMELY GLARING problem with warriors at the moment. I really hope Blizzard does something about it.


#8

To comment on how I’ve felt about the two dps specs so far this tier

Fury

  • From a purely gameplay point of view it’s fairly fun, no major criticisms on that point
  • The talent “Inner Rage” is much less satisfying than it’s legion version. If you took this talent in legion, pressing Raging Blow felt great because it was consistent and did a lot of damage. The current version makes an ability that does ok damage do mildly better damage. From a tuning perspective this talent is also weak versus it’s competitors.
  • The level 75 row is heavily skewed toward Carnage, probably since Rampage is so strong in BFA. The talent Massacre doesn’t feel strong in it’s current iteration. In our current Rampage focused world having the older version of massacre ( execute crits giving a free rampage) would feel better, and could also synergize with Sudden Death, which we usually take anyway.
  • From a tuning point of view fury seems fairly average.
  • Having Battle Shout and Rallying Cry seems reasonable for bringing a dps warrior to a raid (Though this is diluted now that prot has both in BFA), but the loss of shockwave really hurts the dungeon experience.

Arms

  • The gameplay is ok, but having so much of our damage be deep wounds doesn’t feel fun, or fit my view of what arms should be.
    The arms mastery has changed every expansion since MoP>Wod, and I don’t think the current one was the best choice. Next expansion I think you should try a mastery closer to WoDs ( Raw % Slam,Execute, Mortal Strike Damage Bonus). That mastery seemed closer to “arms” without causing issues like Legion’s Colossus Smash bonus damage
    . Tuning wise this spec is good at burst aoe but is otherwise unimpressive. The 8% to the single target abilities has helped with this somewhat, but overall the damage just isn’t there.
    . The nerfs to execute have made that aspect of arms less fun or impressive from a dps niche point of view.

#9

It’s no secret that arms is under performing in BoD showing consistent bottom tier single target DPS. There are a few fights that should have great mechanical synergy with Arms, and even in those cases it only performs middling at best.

I firmly believe that it is okay for specs to have pronounced strengths and weaknesses, if arms is designed to have very weak single target dps, then at least let it shine brighter in its designed niche. Arms loses a lot of its luster especially when being compared next to Fury. Both specs do similar jobs only that Fury is generally good in all situations and about equal to Arms in situations where Arms should shine.

Arms’ overall design and flow is in a good spot this expansion, we are freed from the old RNG driven performance of legion, and the spec has plenty of rage free abilities to keep filling in potential empty GCDs.

My main problem with the core flow and playstyle of the spec really boils down to the execute rotation. As it stands you will be pressing very few different abilities once you get into the execute phase; your GCDs will be dominated with execute and overpower casts. This problem was mitigated through the removed azerite trait, Executioner’s Precision. Now I am not advocating for its return, as I fully understand the trait was a nightmare to balance, but the simple aspect of just hitting MS in addition to the basic execute rotation added at least some semblance of ability synergy and lessened the monotony. I propose a reduction in MS cost to solve this issue, keeping our GCDs full and buffing our overall ST and low target cleave dps.


(Bobbydígital) #10

mortal strike just really needs a rage reduction. in execute phase, OP stacks should reduce the cost as well.

surely a class not making use of a buff is a sign of a misstep somewhere. the overpower buff shouldn’t be ignored once another ability is useable.

that’s ridiculous right? for one of the only mechanics of arms to be completely eschewed once 35% is reached. why even have it at that point? for nostalgias sake? the only justification for it now is the tactican with STA effect and that is irrelevant once execute starts as well.

we don’t even have a trait for execute FFS, across both specs. the only more iconic warrior ability is charge.


(Drezwazluz) #11

Every talent in that row has some use or purpose. FS can jump ahead for patchwerk depending on your haste level (not as simple as high/low haste), which is specifically useful in execute. IR is great for sustained cleave (higher fortified keys, reaping) and has niche power in execute damage (typically equal or better than FS)


#12

Some sort of M+ utility would be really nice, and maybe a bit higher dmg for raids as right now there isnt much reason to bring a warrior aside from battle shout…


(Swerto) #13

My suggested changes for arms aren’t hugely sweeping.

  • Partially undo the rage refund nerf for execute on arms.
  • Bring back executioner precision as a baseline passive
  • Rework Deadly Calm and Ravager to be competitive in the final tier of talents
  • Small number changes to nudge us forward

Arms is mechanically fine until execute phase. At least we were until Fervor became the best talent in its tier, then our rage starvation spread from execute to the rest of the fight. Bringing back EP as baseline will smooth out our execute phase, as well as a partial undoing of the rage refund nerf (doesn’t have to go all the way back to 8.0 values, I’m sure we can compromise because at its current values it is too low). EP will also make the execute phase more engaging beyond “push execute until your eyes bleed and occasionally hit skullsplitter and overpower”


#14

Some great suggestions in this thread. I’ll add that I love the idea of a shattered throw for raid utility, however I don’t think adding shockwave or stormbolt baseline is the right play to help our M+ utility. Even with removal of many class’ stuns coming from Legion to BFA, they still seem to be dime a dozen and DR quickly in M+. If intimidating shout could be glyphed again to have targets cower in fear, its use in dungeons would be far less sketchy. Granted it would still be useless on reaping packs, but it would help on non-undead.

Other than that, a lot of the suggestions previously posted would go a long way to help both arms and fury. I don’t think they need to be reinvented, both specs are fun in their specific ways, but some adjustments would do a lot to help.


(Swerto) #15

A M+ utility idea could be to make stormbolt baseline and replace it in the talent tree with a talent that makes intimidating shout reduce damage output by x% after it ends and also cause targets to cower instead of flee.


(Bobbydígital) #16

if stormbolt was baseline, we’d never see shockwave, and probably won’t as long as we still have the AoE fear.

it may be awkward to use in PvE, but in pvp that would give us two ways to shut down multiple members of a team without DRing eachother.

and i think that’s something that is forgotten in these threads. with pvp talents, the fury spec is completely immune to snares; as long as you have a target to use BT on, you have snare immunity and can break them pretty much at will as well as a very low cost AoE snare.

im not saying fury or arms are stellar in pvp, certainly nowhere near locks and spriests, and i don’t have much experience with it myself, only ever pushing rating last season but i do think those talents are relevant when discussing the kit. they certainly aren’t as impactful as the talents we choose leveling, but i do think they should be considered.


(Swerto) #17

Why says either of the DPS specs need shockwave? An AoE fear that no longer causes targets to flee and reduces damage done after it ends is more than enough AoE CC utility and doesn’t bump into stun DR.


(Bobbydígital) #18

i will totally agree with a way to make our fear not cause things to flee but the fact that it’s a freaking TALENT for prot isn’t a promising sign and is also absolutely ridiculous.

i also wouldn’t mind if roar still had its tiny little bump to act as a pseudo-kick

also if DH can get resources on kicks can we get rude interruption back.


#19

I honestly wouldn’t mind if some Warrior abilities were given Demon Hunter treatment.

Replace Intimidating Shout with ‘Intimidate: Your fierce presence causes the target up to 30 yards away to cower in fear for up to 1 minute (8 seconds in PvP). Damage may interrupt the effect.’

Bake Hamstring into Heroic Throw, make it usable in melee range, make it do 60-400% of attack power worth of damage (based on how far away the target is) on a 10s cooldown, and give us a talent in place of Ravager that makes it split to up to 5 targets, also applying deep wounds.

Make Deep Wounds heal the warrior for 50% of damage done, and slow affected targets by by 20%. Instead of Rend being an active ability have it give Deep Wounds a 30% chance to deal 375% of its damage with each tick.

Make Mortal Strike a 10% healing reduction, but make it stack up to 70%. 'Cause this dampening nonsense in PvP is boring, and no one has feared being hit by mortal strike in over a decade. Make it an ability you don’t want to be affected by, not just a mild annoyance.

I could go on; But yeah. Just have a free bump from a fellow person distressed about how Arms Warriors are a class stuck with 10 year design decisions that are long, long overdue for an overhaul.


(Rouxgaroux) #20

The only issue fury needs fixed is their astronomically and hilariously OP self heals. When I see a freaking melee in the top 5 healing in BGs, something is wrong.