Warlocks are mid at best

[Nasrajin-sargeras]

@Hasnot-illidan

How many do you have?

5 on warlock. Two as aff, two as destro, and 1 as demo. I think demo is my favorite, but I just tend to play whatever is strongest because tbh they’re all really similar, especially now more than ever.

@Hasnot-illidan

This is the only thing that matters in TWW

And in TWW I’m also higher XP than you? I also play every class every season, so I have a pretty solid understanding of just about every class’s strengths and weaknesses, especially relative to other classes & specs.

@Hasnot-illidan

If you read my OP in the last thread, I clearly asked for future warlock buffs to not have the “Does not apply to PVP” modifiers because I warned that if it continues to happen, warlocks will no longer be viable.

And then went on to ask specifically for warlock buffs.

You’re just cherrypicking things to be disingenuous.

@Hasnot-illidan

This is how I know you don’t play warlock in the current season.

No good warlock spams jinx in this dispel-friendly meta. If you do, you’ll starve yourself of soulshards. As soul harvester, you need soul shards to do more malefic raptures (our hardest hitting spell) if you want to maximize your dps.

But you can’t plant and cast rapture vs most of the comps. I think this is likely your problem right here and why you’re struggling so much.

Just like what boltinqt and I were talking about earlier, you oftentimes need to “play not to lose” instead of “playing to win”.

Yes, obviously rapture does WAY more damage and is how you can end games (especially if you have a rogue or feral stunning for you, but we agree on that already), but into so many meta comps you CAN’T plant and cast rapture or you’ll die.

@Hasnot-illidan

But you don’t read do you??!

This is exactly why so many people hate warlock players, man. You’re throwing a tantrum like a child instead of reasonably discussing your class.

[Nasrajin-sargeras]

@Katrisse-aegwynn

I was at 2k mmr and fought feral, dev, ret and only managed 2 wins through luck

Sounds like a SUPER rough lobby for destro. I think if you play well you can definitely 4-2 that, though. The destro+feral is definitely your best MU (just look to do havic coil goes on the ret and the feral can stun off into fear or clone), but destro + dev can work vs double melee as well, especially if the dev helps you with rescue, cauterize every other feral frenzy, and time stops when your healer is CC’d.

@Katrisse-aegwynn

The amount of damage coming in as destro versus what i had to do is just silly

Yeah, so don’t worry as much about getting your damage off, especially during their cds. Play not to lose and use your cc and goes defensively, especially during incarn/dragon rage, and then try to turn it around!

@Katrisse-aegwynn

I had my sac bubble popped inside a maim stun when the feral + ret were on me together WITH unending resolve as well.

This really shouldnt happen unless you sac low/wall late or its incarn in dampening. Where were you standing and why couldn’t your teammates help you when this happened?

[Sleepyclaw-proudmoore]

There’s a lot of disingenuous takes when it comes to Arena play.

Oh man, MY class isn’t performing/gets focused? Needs buffed!

Disc priest is overperforming? Better nerf Warrior.

It’s a never ending struggle where everyone has their own opinions and nothing is ever good enough.

[Nasrajin-sargeras]

@Sleepyclaw-proudmoore

It’s a never ending struggle where everyone has their own opinions and nothing is ever good enough.

I think 99% of the time it’s also a super biased perspective where someone sees what they lose to, but not how or why they lost and blames balance before they look at their own play.

[Zouave-stormrage]

Well, chanimal is barely playing his lock animore in retail. Thats say a lot.

[Katrisse-aegwynn]

@Nasrajin-sargeras

This really shouldnt happen unless you sac low/wall late or its incarn in dampening. Where were you standing and why couldn’t your teammates help you when this happened?

I used sac at full hp. The damage coming in was just mind boggling and while im trying not to blame others, i feel my healer was struggling the entire game.

I spent most of the match trying not to die and honestly the ret rarely being in melee range yet doing full damage sucks.

I agree with the idea of playing to not lose but maybe its time to play something else because at this point my mmr peaked at 2080 and most of the people were (to me) playing fairly well.

Its just getting too sweaty relative to the fun when im porting and running and havoc coiling to not die 90% of the game every game.

I’m beginning to gear my alts again lol.

[Emiruenjoyer-stormrage]

That doesn’t say anything smooth brain.

[Hasnot-illidan]

@Nasrajin-sargeras

5 on warlock. Two as aff, two as destro, and 1 as demo

Well, I have three as aff, so technically, I have more xp at aff than you

@Nasrajin-sargeras

And in TWW I’m also higher XP than you?

Yet the “tech” you share is not new information to me

I don’t see how other class experience matters in this discussion about warlocks. In fact, the only thing that should matter is how many games you played in the current season’s meta as an affliction warlock.

Just imagine if I told you how your class should work when I barely played the class this season (I have less than 100 games played as boomkin in average rating). When you think about it from this POV, it doesn’t make sense.

@Nasrajin-sargeras

But you can’t plant and cast rapture vs most of the comps.

Nobody is planting in one spot and spam-casting rapture all game bro.

Controlling your jinx usage is about managing shards well, so you have OPTIONS to do damage in case you get kicked on Shadow school or the enemy healer or DPS dispells your dots.

Regardless, your “hurr durr the spec is 75% jinx” comment clearly shows that you have not queued enough games as an affliction warlock in the current season to understand the intricacies and justification for it needing a buff.

For example, I want you to check out some tech that you can only get from playing the game as a warlock below…

@Katrisse-aegwynn

I was at 2k mmr and fought feral, dev, ret and only managed 2 wins through luck.

So for feral, ret, dev is actually a good lobby for destro. Mainly the kill targets are the rets or evokers.

If the feral is on the enemy team, you want to trinket port his full incarn stun. This slows downs his bleed dmg and forces him to use a gap closer to get to you or change the target.

If he leaps to you, you should pre-drop infernal to get the passive shard generation because the next global you need to do is fear the feral. He has two options, either stun you or kick you. If he stuns you, the infernal will stun his stun.

If he doesnt stun you and kicks the fear, you can now free cast a bolt.

Before the ret connects, you can fear the ret, and free cast another bolt.

Hopefully mayhem procs, so now you can coil and freecast another bolt. If it doesn’t fear the ret again, get kicked, and freecast another bolt.

By now, the feral kick should be up. You can now gate and freecast another bolt.

If both melee are on you, just conflag > shadowfury > freecast a bolt. If one kicks the shadowfury, cast the bolt (try to juke first) → get kicked, then wait 3 seconds to cast more bolts.

[Emiruenjoyer-stormrage]

No one is reading that coal post.

[Ozimov-area-52]

@Boltinqt-defias-pillager

You only have 5 shards but if you’re playing correctly you’ll gain the 6th / 7th charge through other generation mechanics while you’re casting the first 2 bolts.

I know but outside of infernal goes ( every 2 mins) and ritual stacking , it’s not realistically consistent. At best full shard pooling with some conflag charges to get the 3rd one out outside of cds but hopefully u get my point.

@Amatox-bleeding-hollow

But the quoted is straight up disingenuous. Warlock being the most killed target has nothing to do with how tank it is/isnt (it is) and everything to do with warlock being a mandatory target to attack unless you want to just lose the game instantly.

@Nasrajin-sargeras

Feels like the meta is sp/mage/hunter+rogue/feral/war and I don’t think warlock brings any significant niche for or against any of those comps.

This pretty much. I know locks aren’t squishy as people assume but the way the class is designed is backwards , and it’s not the only class that suffers from outdated mechanics ( i believe dks , druids and shamans also do).

But the warlock problem specifically is that :

• it’s defensive toolkit suffers a lot more from dampening than most. Soul leech, dark pact , healthstones. All of these are dampened, pact costs max hp too which at around 70% damp is more hp cost than the shield’s value ( if u r running short pact). This is odd for a class that’s supposed to be/have been the dampener class being amongst the worst into dampening, the longer the game goes on the weaker it gets.

• the class is a true damage bot these days, if u don’t output more damage/kill pressure than other classes then you don’t warrant the spot. This is largely tied to the whims of tuning changes as the class doesn’t provide as much utility/peels or setup options as some other alternatives, u know what i mean.

• the biggest issue i have here is that the class is weak at the very lowest end ( skill floor) and at the very highest end ( ceiling) whilst being okay/good in the lower to upper middle of the ladder, 3v3 specifically.

I know some here probably think my opinion is strangely similar to what a new lock player would say but that’s not my point at all. At the lowest end locks struggle to deal with the pressure of melee and being shutdown/outpaced , as the lock improves they close said gap and become oppressive , all the way up to the top of the ladder. But as u enter R1 territory and start facing awc teams who know exactly wht they re doing lock falls off again. It can only be good at the awc lvl if the class is overtuned. This is a flaw in design. No class should be in this situation and the reason it’s the way it is is primarily due to it’s kit.

If it’s weak at the lowest and highest end but performs well in the middle then it’s best is the middle. Which is the title of this post.

[Sleepyclaw-proudmoore]

No need to insult someone.

[Nasrajin-sargeras]

@Hasnot-illidan

Well, I have three as aff, so technically, I have more xp at aff than you

And yet you’re losing significantly more games than you win at a lower rating.

Are you really trying to claim that the metric of games played matters more than success as the spec?

@Hasnot-illidan

I don’t see how other class experience matters in this discussion about warlocks.

Then you’re exceptionally biased and unable to make a fair judgement on what needs buffs/nerfs. The game is not world of warlocks vs everything else. It’s 13 classes and 39 specs that all have to have ~50% winrates on average which has a LOT of options for comps and play/counterplay.

Something not being meta doesn’t mean it automatically needs buffs. Look at resto druid, for example. Disc got a nerf and now it’s the best healer in the game without receiving a single buff. Aff doesn’t need a buff as it still does significantly better than most classes, even if it’s not the best right now.

@Hasnot-illidan

Just imagine if I told you how your class should work when I barely played the class this season (I have less than 100 games played as boomkin in average rating).

What do you mean? If rudar or dipi told me how to play my class because they had a higher winrate at a higher mmr and overall more XP I would ABSOLUTELY listen to that advice. It would be foolish not to.

@Hasnot-illidan

When you think about it from this POV, it doesn’t make sense.

That’s your issue with all of these conversations. You’re either incapable or unwilling to consider a PoV outside your own while simultaneously ignoring any introspection that you may be wrong or missing information.

[Nasrajin-sargeras]

@Hasnot-illidan

Nobody is planting in one spot and spam-casting rapture all game bro.

I agree, but in all of your posts, you seem to think that you have to generate the kill pressure to end the game as the warlock even when you’re the kill target which is not the case.

@Boltinqt-defias-pillager

after that you should just as you said, play to not lose.

Playing to not lose is something most melee players hate doing though

Boltinqt even talked about this earlier, but it’s not JUST a melee thing.

@Hasnot-illidan

Controlling your jinx usage is about managing shards well, so you have OPTIONS to do damage in case you get kicked on Shadow school or the enemy healer or DPS dispells your dots.

I mean yes and no, you can always manually apply agony and corruption, but realistically you’re overcapping shards if you’re playing properly defensively which makes jinx extremely efficient as a way to get out damage and then position/cc even while being the kill target.

@Hasnot-illidan

Regardless, your “hurr durr the spec is 75% jinx” comment clearly shows that you have not queued enough games as an affliction warlock in the current season to understand the intricacies and justification for it needing a buff.

Nah, you can absolutely just jinx, run, and do your haunt/ua/soulrot/glare go when you have coils or stuns or your partner has CC and still reliably win games. Also, the 4set makes this even easier!

@Hasnot-illidan

So for feral, ret, dev is actually a good lobby for destro. Mainly the kill targets are the rets or evokers.

Ya, it’s not a bad lobby, which is why I said I think he can 4-2. That being said, I dont think ret+destro should ever beat feral+dev.

@Hasnot-illidan

If the feral is on the enemy team, you want to trinket port his full incarn stun. This slows downs his bleed dmg and forces him to use a gap closer to get to you or change the target.

If he leaps to you

This is something that I talked about in the other thread. You should NEVER be in a position where someone can use a targeted charge to your port. Ever. If you are, you were in the wrong spot in the first place.

I like the rest of the breakdown, though, and that doesn’t even include using your gateway or kiting around the pillar when you port for more time to allow your teammates to reposition!

[Hasnot-illidan]

@Nasrajin-sargeras

If rudar or dipi told me how to play my class because they had a higher winrate at a higher mmr and overall more XP I would ABSOLUTELY listen to that advice.

Bro. Did you just list balance druid mains (idk them much, I just googled the names and world of warcraft)…and then say if they gave you (a balance druid) some advice you would listen.

Then proceeded to tell me (a warlock main) how to play my class when you haven’t qued a single game as warlock in S2 of TWW.

@Nasrajin-sargeras

Nah, you can absolutely just jinx, run, and do your haunt/ua/soulrot/glare go when you have coils or stuns or your partner has CC and still reliably win games. Also, the 4set makes this even easier!

Nope, it doesn’t work like this. If you played warlock in S2 of TWW, you would know how trigger-happy teams are with the dispells. So unless you’re fighting low rating teams that don’t dispel, you’ll run out of shards if jinx is your only method to apply agonies and corruptions.

As for shard caps…jinx is made specifically so you don’t cap shards while you kite. So all of this “you still overcap as jinx while defensive” thing never happens in a real world situations.

Just admit you haven’t played warlock in a while, bro…It’s ok

@Nasrajin-sargeras

I agree, but in all of your posts, you seem to think that you have to generate the kill pressure to end the game as the warlock even when you’re the kill target which is not the case.

Well, the best defensive is a good offense. Running away all game gives the other team momentum unless your teammate has spamable CC that can turn the tides in your favor. So if blizz doesn’t want to buff our defensives (I don’t think they need too btw) the next thing is to buff our ST pressure by tuning haunt and shadowbolt dmg for this season’s healthpools.

[Galarlas-sargeras]

@Hasnot-illidan

And it needs a buff, mainly Shadowbolt, Haunt, and UA dispell kickback because that thing is tuned for last season’s health pools.

I agree. Let’s not forget Demon Bolt for Demo. Also, Infernal Bolt, Ruination, Wicked Cleave for Diabolist.

Just the right amount of buff that doesn’t make them as overpowered as they were pre-nerf in Beta.

[Duhammad-grobbulus]

If anything I think the outliers should be brought down instead of buffing warlock into being one of the outliers again.

[Nasrajin-sargeras]

@Hasnot-illidan

Bro. Did you just list balance druid mains (idk them much, I just googled the names and world of warcraft)…and then say if they gave you (a balance druid) some advice you would listen.

No, I listed people who play my class better than I do. If they gave me advice, I would listen to it. I may ask questions, I may not agree at first either, but if what they’re saying consistently produced better results, I would absolutely take that into consideration instead of making a strawman argument and lashing out at them like a child.

@Hasnot-illidan

Then proceeded to tell me (a warlock main) how to play my class when you haven’t qued a single game as warlock in S2 of TWW.

I’m literally higher rated than you on my warlock in 3s with a higher winrate as your own spec?

@Hasnot-illidan

Nope, it doesn’t work like this. If you played warlock in S2 of TWW, you would know how trigger-happy teams are with the dispells.

It does. And if they dispel your damage, then you can just cc for free and give yourself breathing room and your team time to set up!

@Hasnot-illidan

you’ll run out of shards if jinx is your only method to apply agonies and corruptions.

Yeah, that’s not what I said, though. I even said:

@Nasrajin-sargeras

you can always manually apply agony and corruption, but realistically you’re overcapping shards if you’re playing properly defensively which makes jinx extremely efficient as a way to get out damage and then position/cc even while being the kill target.

^^^ which you chose to ignore.

@Hasnot-illidan

Well, the best defensive is a good offense

Sometimes yes, sometimes no, it depends on your comp. You can’t always be offensive as warlock. You just can’t, and that’s okay. It’s okay to ween enemy CDs and THEN go aggressive.

@Hasnot-illidan

Running away all game

Not all game, just during enemy cds and when you don’t have DRs.

At the end of the day, if you’re doing 60% of your normal dps through dots and taking 0% because you’re not being hit, you’re getting further and further ahead every second you do this.

@Hasnot-illidan

So if blizz doesn’t want to buff our defensives (I don’t think they need too btw) the next thing is to buff our ST pressure by tuning haunt and shadowbolt dmg for this season’s healthpools.

I agree on the defensives thing, I just don’t think haunt or shadowbolt need to be buffed. Tbh i think this is the relative damage they should have been doing last season, but they were overtuned then.

[Hasnot-illidan]

@Nasrajin-sargeras

I’m literally higher rated than you on my warlock in 3s with a higher winrate as your own spec?

Who’s your warlock? Cause the one I see on seramate was last played in Dragonflight. And what comp(s) do you play.

[Survïvalïst-bleeding-hollow (Survïvalïst)]

This is the way

[Christtel-stormrage]

Destro only needs a couple of bolts to make me use loh or divine shield. You are heavily underselling it. Havoc coil into 3 bolts makes everyone panic in rss. They are rather nimble too specially in maps with LoS.