Ahh, Okay. I say my quote in the mix and got confused for a moment 
Goblins do have the racist NJ Italian accent too. But it’s pretty cringe to be proud of that, especially when most of us don’t talk like that.
1 Like
Not entirely. That was the frustrating thing about our conversation. We really didn’t disagree that much, but where we did, you were eager to twist and manipulate my words for the sake of making personal attacks against me.
Again, my entire point has not been to dismiss anyone who feels represented by a certain fantasy race, or any other type of attachment they might have.
Maybe I have not articulated myself properly, but I have only tried to express a hesitance to declare anything as “representation” just because influence has been drawn.
Despite being insulted by a number of people here, I am giving some thought into what has been said here. I can’t say my mind has been changed, but I am trying to look at things from different angles. Maybe I’ll talk more on that later.
Here is an interesting question though. As I mentioned, I do not feel represented by Stormwind in anyway. In fact, it might one race of the game that I am attached to the least.
As Baal said:
So, where does that leave cultures in fiction that draw from real world cultures, but twists it or changes it to be something unique?
Because what irks me is the idea that Stormwind is European Representation. Yet, it is so far removed from the supposed source material, that there really isn’t anything about it that is… satisfying? For a lack of a better word, I guess.
Point is, is it the fault of Blizzard’s Narrative design that Stormwind isn’t “European enough”. Or is there a place in fiction for things so changed and/or watered down, that is hardly resembles it’s point of origin? If so, is that still representation?
I am not sure if I articulated that question very well, it is kind of a complicated question, and I am still working it out in my head.
1 Like
I mean personally I don’t find that offensive but I’m not from the tri-state area. I guess I could see someone being offended by the cutthroat organized crime angle but of my grandparents generation all the Italians I’m related to were either upstanding citizens (nurses, cops, lawyers, one was a mayor) or career criminals. So, not completely unwarranted in my family line at least.
2 Likes
Don’t get me wrong, I’ve had a few family members who worked for the Mafia, but it’s just the generalizations, often from people who aren’t even of Italian descent
1 Like
What do you mean Goblins are 50% Jersey Shore, the Northeast Tri-state Napolitano Diaspora 
I actually was hoping Drustvar wouldn’t be only Salem but also a bit of Italian Stregheria stuff
1 Like
I ultimately liked Kul Tiras as a whole. However, I was disappointed that it was just “Naval Gilneas”
I was hoping for more Mediterranean influence, or something.
1 Like
It was a trip when my grandmother passed away a few years back. As you might imagine those two parts of the family didn’t get along swimmingly, at least for a generation. If my cousins secretly in the Cosa Nostra she’s pulling an Oscar worthy cover act.
But nothing buries hatchets like death so there were several guys I’d never met as an adult in the full Buggsy Malone get up. Three piece suits with the flower lapel. It was surreal.
1 Like
I had a family member who worked for the gambino crime family. I never met him personally, since I have a pretty big family. 20+ cousins just on my dads side that I never met.
1 Like
I was vaguely aware of who they were as I knew their grandkids. But turns out violent criminals don’t make the best husbands or fathers so, bit of a reason we had pretty minimal interaction.
I lucked out my grandpa was the most normal one. A injury in WW2 meant he couldn’t stand for too long so he worked as an AT&T operator until retirement. That was kind of neat as he was still around when I was getting into MMOs and owing to being an operator he completely understood the concept of having friendships with people on the other side of the country you’d never physically met. Had a lot of friends he chatted with for hours at the other switching stations.
4 Likes
That’s awesome to hear.
1 Like
Did you just do an emote backslash in your rebuttal? I… okay. Also, you seem to be under the assumption that I think anything in BfA is good. It’s not, and the use of that speech later was bad, because it was.
The rest of your ‘points’ are barely even worth replying to, you seem to be willfully contrarian for the sake of being as such. Basic human decency? I figure mustering up a sense of empathy for someone who actively helped to destroy your home as a child and kill nearly everyone you ever knew at the time is a bit more than basic decency. You’re ignoring basic elements of the plot and lore for the sake of downplaying an actually nuanced moment.
Your interpretation of my appreciation for the Horde is quite honestly ridiculous. If you actually read what I post then you’d know that my issue has been with the writers, not the faction, and that I’ve stated MULTIPLE times that what they’ve done to the Horde is detrimental to the story as a whole and undermines the actually good base they had prior to Cataclysm. The Horde as a subversion of monstrous races and their tropes was one of the more unique interpretations in fantasy for a long time, and it was what made the Horde popular in the first place.
If you can’t even appreciate the Kor’kron charge at the Wrathgate, with a rumbled out ‘For the Horde’ as they ride to the sound of warhorns into the undead, then I honestly question if you’ve ever been happy with the story at all, or even liked it at any point. And yes, they died, same as all the Alliance there too, minus Bolvar, who also would have been swept aside just as easily as Dranosh if he’d charged too. In writing we call that a tragic moment, wherein the big teamup and all that questing effort turned out to be not enough. The moment Dranosh fell, it killed all that momentum, and even if Putress hadn’t made his move, they’d have lost.
Another good moment of Horde and Alliance interaction in Wrath, when an Orc explains cowardice to his son, as he describes some Alliance prisoners who had been caught trying to abandon their posts. You get a glimpse into the Orc’s mindset of being willing to die for their freedom, and then you bring the defectors back to the Alliance, where the knight that picks them up shows just as much disdain for their cowardice.
6 Likes
It’s like you read something, quote it, and then go off on a tangent about something else. Sorry you feel like some orc civilian shouldn’t have spit at some Alliance goons? Again, your post is a long winded rant about something I’m not arguing. You quote each of my sentences and then ramble on in hardly legible English about something unrelated to the quote. You keep attacking those strawmen though, “dear”, you seem to enjoy it.
Yeah I do miss when the Horde and Alliance’s relationship had moments of begrudging respect. There was always a lot of bad blood between them but stuff like the Legion and the Scourge meant all out war between them would mean mutually assured destruction.
Until after the Wrathgate. Varian was the aggressor there which was the last time the Alliance got to do that to my knowledge. But it was still pretty dumb when one of the bosses were the enemy faction. Twice. I did like the Trial one if anything because fighting what’s essentially an enemy dungeon team was a nifty concept.
But when we’re fighting eachother in the Lich King’s living room it’s just insane. The guy wants to destroy the world and you’re literally handing him ammo with every dead soldier. And it went downhill from there and never stopped.
The status quo never changed. The Horde and Alliance still have to team up because even with the Legion gone there is just no end to the cosmic apocalypse armies. But there’s not just bad blood anymore there’s fresh blood. And yeah the Horde did oust Slyvanas eventually but she crossed the line and failed pretty severely out of the gate so it’s weird it took that long.
Maybe if the Alliance had been portrayed as being out for blood it could’ve worked. Like even knowing how wrong Teldrassil was it seemed like the Alliance would accept nothing but absolute surrender, forcing the whole Horde to live at the edge of a sword and exist only by their mercy.
But that wasn’t the case. Anduin is extremely open to negotiations and very actively wants this war to end by any means necessary. Even Tyrande seems like she’ll at least tolerate the idea in exchange for the Banshee’s head which isn’t that unreasonable of a demand. So the Horde just seem like mooks who’ll go along with whatever until some Orcs with initiative turn up to fix things.
And even that came off as hollow as Anduin had to give Saurfang pep talks to get his ish in gear. Christ, what a mess.
12 Likes
Battle for Azeroth in four simple words.
And now that I dwell on it, getting back on topic, it could’ve been interesting if some of those baying for blood in the Alliance had dark motives.
In fact it could be the Kaldorei that start to realize some of their allies really don’t care at all about Teldrassil. For one rationale or another they just want the Horde nations either crippled to the point of never being able to resist them or completely obliterated.
You wouldn’t have to have all the Kaldorei feel that way. We can still have Punished Tyrande. But some aspects of the Kaldorei leadership going “No. We want justice. Not another massacre” would give that faction a real sense of dignity - which would be nice seeing as they started out being brought pretty low. They could be the ones that directly help the Horde rebels overthrow Slyvanas.
Instead though Anduin just goes
“C’mon guys they said they’re sorry. Look at how sad Saurfang is”.
2 Likes
Anduin has to do stuff like that, because Saurfang had no bearing over anyone in the Horde. When people say ‘Sylvanas shouldn’t have called the Horde nothing’ isn’t it because, Saurfang didn’t prove half as much as the emotional response of the emotionally scarred character?
I mean it sure seemed like Saurfang, Thrall and Lor’Themar had enough combined respect to rally like half the Horde together collectively. Them being afraid to do that alone because as we see with Baine there’s a real fear of reprisal made sense.
The question is though why is the other half of the Horde going along with her. Some Forsaken have the excuse of being crazy people basically in a cult that sees her as God Empress - but the rest of the Horde doesn’t. And they even have her doing horrible ish to the Forsaken, so all but her die hards had a very good excuse to start to question her.
Which you’d think some Forsaken might’ve done out the gate when the Desolate Council and everyone who went to The Gathering were never seen or heard from again. Something that could’ve been blamed on the Alliance but, inexplicably, isn’t. Or when her grand plan in the Battle of Lordaeron was to turn their homes into a bomb.
If the Alliance were doing horrifying stuff to the Horde, and it seemed like it was irrelevant who was on the throne because to many it was quite literally Lok’Tar Ogar this time - then I could see why she’d maintain loyalty. If she you know, won, anything after Teldrassil at least.
But nah half the Horde’s motivation was “I said DUCK them Blues” until Slyvanas called them big stinky losers. Genius writing.
5 Likes
You said it yourself, the non-warchief hero’s of the Horde only inspired ‘half’ the Horde to even rebel, with them. The rest seemed content enough to continue to rampage.
I don’t understand your second to last paragraph very well, at all. Throne?
I’m just saying, even Saurfang doubting himself, before the event makes Anduin entirely necessary. Sylvanas’, agents that will make anyone disappear clearly are threatening enough that she couldn’t care less about the rebellion until it reared in her face.
Then it’s still only by her slip that anything happens, so the question to why is the other half of the Horde going along with her, it’s because they’re weak from their fear, eh? Or, is it because they agreed with her, or didn’t even care to disagree?
The notion of dignity for the Night Elves, being that they assist the Horde out of yet another Warchief tyrant, is pretty stupid.
I’d say I’d the Horde are thirsty for an excuse to not like the Alliance, then Genn shouldn’t have been stopped on the Western flank. He should have been allowed to pile up a few innocents, for some cheese factor.
If Genn would have done that, I guess he wouldn’t have been able to retain his dignity in assisting the Horde rebels though lol. Or, maybe he could have, since it was the loyalists inside the walls.