Vengeful Retreat and DPS

I’m thinking about returning to WoW after hearing about class reworks. I’m curious if there’s been any chatter about removing VR from DPS rotation?

I LOVED the faster play style HDH as it satisfied my inner rage. “LOVED” was referring to pre DF but I’m even happy with current DF (as of last time I played) momentum build - ALMOST! I can still release my inner rage and play fast with the Fel Rush and The Hunt portion of momentum.

The biggest issue to me with the current HDH play style is hands down Vengeful Retreat. Nothing feels more anti aggressive and says SLOW tactful DPS play style than having to turn your back to your opponent and leaping backwards with a slow awkward animation.

Due to VR talents Initiative, Tactical Retreat, and Momentum you’re forced into slow awkward VR for DPS. if VR is moved back to a utility only ability and not a DPS ability I would love to return to HDH.

no one knows, but its unlikely

I mean VR is literally setting up your burst window and generating fury… not sure how that slows dps at all?

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If you’re actively engaged on a target and trying to stay on them in melee it makes no sense to want to leap backwards. VR was and should’ve stayed a niche positioning and utility (remove cc) ability, cause that’s what it is.

There’s far better approaches they can take to giving buffs that would feel like a smooth play style.


Or play properly and learn to jump over the group/mob and not away from it… Sometimes I feel like people on these forums won’t be happy until they can sit there and watch the game play itself…


Is jumping over over the group/mob…

Asking for devs to change/add different abilities to make a play style more enjoyable is not the same as standing around doing nothing. Not even sure how you got to that conclusion.

It’s just stupid design. Yeah, while I’m dodging a million swirlies on an endboss and rigorously stacked because strategy demands it I’m going to flip my camera around, VR over the mobs, and fel rush back in all for an extra couple percent of damage.

Give me a break. Nah. I’ll just stand still and beat on the mob and get chewed out by my raid leader for parsing an 85 instead of a 95.

Momentum, Initiative, and Unbound Chaos all need to be deleted.


Bump. Add fodder back in over VR clunkiness.

Fodder is straight forward and easy. Don’t even understand how that was seen as a bigger issue than VR for DPS.

Forget about VR being removed. It’s core to the “class fantasy” of Havoc or zipping around like a 3 y old kid that just had way too many cokes.

Oh, you misunderstood me and I probably didn’t write it clearly so that’s on me. I’m not asking for VR to be removed. I asking for it to not have DPS tied to it. Just make it a utility ability where it will remove CC and can also work as a positioning ability.

Just remove from being part of the DPS rotation.


My answer doesn’t change.

Havoc having movement as a rotational gameplay loop is here to stay, and it’s been solidified after 2 reworks.

You can try and cope that you find a build that uses no mobility that performs the same, but chances are is going to be worse and it’s always going to be creeping around.

If you don’t like mobility as DPS, you’re better off rerolling and saving you a headache.

Well, I don’t feel like reiterating my entire thread, but covered it already. The short, I love fel rush and have no problems with using that for DPS cause it’s fun.

VR is awkward to use for buffing your dps as it creates situations that make no sense - ie purposely turning your back to your opponent so when you leap over you’re facing them. It also has terrible slow animation that feels nothing like

It feels slow and awkward and isn’t fun. But hey if the majority of people really find that awkward SLOW leap backwards fun for DPS then argue away to keep it. Feels like it should be a monk ability.

I want fun and speed with fast movement like Fel Rush and The Hunt where I’m aggressively attacking the bosses.

They won’t do it, the Devs are obsessed with the idea that our movement skills are not for movement but to maximize damage rotation, a nonsense.


As long as we have the current dev we will be forced into momentum/ inertia game play, I just REALLY wish they would give sinful brand to another class as well, than we could really see how often DH is brought to anything, our numbers are inflated because people know that buff is mandatory especially in raid! It’s the only reason i stay DH to help my guild, because i really don’t enjoy the current havoc style and only login to raid!


yall know that no m over is only 2% behind in ptr rn right? thats un optimized and sims dont account for cycle bug which in all honesty pushes no movers ahead of movers. not to mention 2% is legit made up by skill difference

I can’t stand tying damage rotation into VR, Rush, and with Venge the leap. It feels bad. That stuff is nice for mobility and that’s it.


It’d guess over 75% of players agree with you… but this dev doesn’t care about making wow more appealing to the masses, player retention, player enjoyment, or anything you’d think they’d care about.

They’re unfortunately only concerned with their own vision for DH and Rogue. The class mods/streamers WILL NEVER go against the dev. Why? Because both playing and writing guides about the class is how they earn their income. If they quit playing the class the way the devs force us to, then somebody else will take their place as the “class expert” and they’ll lose their income.

So please, take any class guide writer/theorycrafter/streamer’s opinion with a grain of salt… As paying their rent is tied to pretending to enjoy/be excited about this stuff.


I always find it so weird how people will develop these strange fictions based on nothing and state them as fact. Its not like the class changing would change their ability to write guides.

The answer to all this is much simpler: the dev thinks VR momentum is good and chose to keep it in, despite many people not liking it. Id prefer to call that intentional ignorance or incompetence.

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This is the most fried take I’ve seen on the forums and thats saying something lmao

I dunno, I would love to see an in-game survey to see what DH’s really like Momentum and that playstyle and those of us who do not! I personally think it’s terrible as well, we are the only class stuck with movement for dps, and it’s not cool fantasy, it’s frustrating in a raiding/mythic plus environment, and we are the only class hindered in that way!