Vengeance DH Talent Feedback and Suggestions


(Felgong) #21
To me, soul Cleaving doesn’t feel different than spirit bombing. I just use it to self heal, do damage and that’s it. What started as a debuff (spirit bomb) that would be re-applied to keep the buff is used to consume souls replacing SC.
Maybe if there aren’t fragments Soul Cleave could heal for a % of missing health, that would help.

(Bigdiggles) #22
Some good follow through suggestions, expanding on the initial thoughts here.

One of the greatest losses from our artifact is Painbringer. For those that don’t know it reduces damage taken by 5% per soul consumed. And you could consume 5 souls at a time.

Missing this is perhaps part of why soul cleave feels so bad.

I agree that adding more straight out healing may be too similar to a death knight, but there are so many other creative options here.

What if soul cleave gave a passive 5-10% parry?

What if soul cleave reduced magic damage taken by 3-5% per soul consumed for x seconds?

And/or possibly another solution could be to buff soul cleave through talents. I actually suggested this in the last row of talents in my initial suggestion in this very thread. The caveat about this suggestion is the fix would need to be very powerful to compete with other talents in the row.

The current iteration of void reaver does not give enough power to have it chosen over last resort or soul barrier.

(Feltrinity) #23
05/27/2018 07:12 PMPosted by Bigdiggles
What if soul cleave gave a passive 5-10% parry?

What if soul cleave reduced magic damage taken by 3-5% per soul consumed for x seconds?

The parry buff would be as useless as our Antorus 2-set bonus, but the magic damage mitigation would make for some interesting gameplay.

(Steakidari) #24
One of the azerite powers gives it an absorb, which even when we are lower hp is lackluster at best. Which, I know is just a numbers tuning thing it still feels like being forced to use an ability.

(Felgong) #25
There are some good points I'd like to mention anyway:

1) We have so many utility for M+ now that it is really interesting. Purge, AoE Silence, Interrupt, AoE Fear, CC, AoE Grip. It fills the fantasy of a utility tank. You can also mention the +5% magic dmg but this is really a raid thing, the contribution for a group is negligible (many raid-wide abilities are doubled when you're in a group to make them useful in a grp)
2) The dungeon design now makes use of a number of abilties that takes you out of your location: pushback, throwing up, etc. Being a DH helps with that.
3) The Consume Souls healing mechanics (8% of the dmg received in the last 5s) AND the fact that this is the main source of healing gives a good depth to DH tanking. I like it, personally.
4) The new reduced threat generation is also very nice, even if we this privileges other tanks more than we

However, I still think our major tank CD needs to be looked at and many of our talents, and this thread has very very good suggestions.

(Bigdiggles) #26
I’m with you Felgong. Our main tanking mitigation cooldown: Metamorphosis feels like it should either be buffed in power, or the cooldown should be reduced to 2 minutes.

It definitely does not pack the same level of protection it once did in Legion.

Also soul generation feels very clunky.

In general the soul fragment system needs an overhaul. There is a delay with their generation, some fragments are too easily unintentionally picked up. And now some appear to be unable to picked up altogether.

I was doing a dungeon today and some of the soul fragments that spawned were unable to be used or picked up. Couldn’t determine what causes these unusable fragments yet, but it’s occasionally showing up.

There are a couple of Havoc DH bugs that have been reported, but Bliz hasn’t gotten around to fixing. I would hate for the game to go live with these bugs still there:

When swapping specs from Havoc to Vengeance, back to Havoc, the Torment spell dissapears from your spellbook and action bars.

The other is Chaos Nova. Currently is bugged and not stunning any targets whatsoever. Posting this to hope to bring attention to these concerns, bugs, and bring some love to the DH class! :)

(Bigdiggles) #27
Edit: removed

(Bigdiggles) #28
Well we received changes to 2 talents. First is spirit bomb can consume 5 souls up from 3. This is a reversion since it initially could consume 5.

The other is void reaver was changed, damage reduction reduced to 6% and duration extended to 12 seconds. Probably better for M+ trash but negligible for mitigation hard hitting boss abilities.

My feedback is I am happy spirit bomb got changed back to 5 souls. Honestly this wasn’t a huge concern though (there are other talents in that row that need adjusting since spirit bomb feels mandatory)

Void reaver change was too small to make it competitive. See talent suggestions at start of this thread.

(Mêphiston) #29
I don't get why the healing from soul bomb was nerfed, not necessary imo.

I'd like to see the magic damage defensive re-added.

I like the talent where soul cleave reduces the damage you take but maybe it could bake in an amount based on number of souls consumed or just consumed in general (like from spirit bomb too) something like after using soul cleave reduce damage by 2 or 3% per soul consumed up to 5 souls for X seconds refreshing duration on each soul consumed.

(Bigdiggles) #30
06/02/2018 02:02 PMPosted by Mêphiston
I don't get why the healing from soul bomb was nerfed, not necessary imo.

I'd like to see the magic damage defensive re-added.

I like the talent where soul cleave reduces the damage you take but maybe it could bake in an amount based on number of souls consumed or just consumed in general (like from spirit bomb too) something like after using soul cleave reduce damage by 2 or 3% per soul consumed up to 5 souls for X seconds refreshing duration on each soul consumed.


I too want DH to be powerful. But they’ve already retuned the numbers and we’re probably the second best (behind DK) self sustain tank. So I can’t truthfully agree with you about soul bomb needing buffing.

(Side note but I really think soul bomb should be just made baseline. It would allow for some REAL CHOICES on that talent tier, and something interesting could replace it).

I too would like empower wards back. The most interesting component I loved about this skill was how it could actually increase your DPS by taking magic damage, and allowed for a very high skill cap for players that knew how to use it. But they’ve removed spell mitigation for almost all tanks, so unless it’s baked into something else (like meta;see below) we probably won’t get it.

100% agree that soul cleave could have a mini pain bringer component to it. To keep it balanced this would probably need to come from a talent, but fortunately there’s lots of room for talent improvement, as highlighted by this Original Post.

(Bigdiggles) #31
One last thing I would like to add is about Meta for Vengeance. It feels pretty scrubby now as our main tanking cooldown. Perhaps there could be the 10% magic damage mitigation baked in to meta. Since the cooldown is so long, it wouldn’t compare to the 20sec cooldown on magic mitigation we used to have.

The other possibility is to have Meta empower more baseline spells like it does for Havoc.

Meta could upgrade soulcleave to include that painbringer like you suggested.

Meta could upgrade shear/fracture to always crit. Could turn fire damage to chaos damage for flame sigil. It could add a passive healing component for immolation aura.

(Raim) #32
I can't provide as much feedback as the opening post, but I dislike how Spirit Bomb feels superior to Soul Cleave and generally takes priority unless you're capped on pain. I am not sure why there was the decision to buff Spirit Bomb back to consuming up to 5 souls while nerfing the reduction on Void Reaver. I feel like Void Reaver should swap places with Gluttony and be improved with either reduction or leech to be competitive with Spirit Bomb, and then slightly bring up the proc change of Gluttony in its new 110 space.

What would be really neat would actually be to replace Gluttony entirely, swap its location with Void Reaver and make it a passive akin to Dark Apotheosis in Mists of Pandaria where the DH gains a permanent pseudo-metamorphosis form (which doesnt benefit from Meta specific talents, or only halfway does) which could smooth out damage, while Soul Barrier and Last Resort can remain choices for bursts of damage or emergencies. Have it something like your normal form but with scales, wings and your tattoos glowing. Can either provide a small flat physical/magical reduction or perhaps more passive leech.

I feel like this would make sense from a progression and a lore perspective. The DH training against the Legion up until 110 and into BFA has empowered them to better control and retain their powers of Metamorphosis and maintain a passive state of it where they still benefit from their control over its influence within moderation. I think from a cosmetic standpoint DH players would appreciate this choice to remain in a metamorphosis style form even if its mostly cosmetic and provides less benefit that the cooldown itself. You could also go the route where it even flat out removes Metamorphosis in favor of making it a passive 'stance' where talents that affect meta are always active but only halfway as efficient, such as Soul Rending only providing 12.5% leech. Note: This talent could easily replace Demonic in Havoc if you were so inclined instead/as well.

(Kryonyx) #33
Soul Barrier should indicate how many souls it's going to consume like Spirit Bomb and Soul Cleave.

Soul Barrier should be off the GCD so we can use it immediately in those oh !@#$ moments. It's basically replacing AHR anyway.

Soul Cleave should deal more damage or have some other benefit to make it worth pressing. Right now it takes souls away from Spirit Bomb now that SPB consumes 5 souls again and feels very clunky.

Concentrated Sigils should empower our sigils based on each sigil type.

Sigil of Chains should go back to 1m CD.

Quickened Sigils should get a buff, maybe make sigils instant.

Gluttony should be baseline. Void Reaver should replace it. A new talent that extends Metamorphosis duration and gives it some magic mitigation while active should go on the 110 line.

Charred Flesh and Fel Devastation should be buffed more to make them viable.

Walking over your souls should not consume them!

(Steakidari) #34
I think the only time walking over souls should consume them is when you're not in combat. Because I'll get weird moment where I just run over mine after fighting stuff and I don't have any pain left but I have plenty of souls just laying around.

(Bigdiggles) #35
TLDR Summary of Vengeance DH current state

Many talents need adjusting
See original post for suggestions and reasoning. Imbalanced talent options equates to limited choices.

Spirit bomb should be made baseline
Opening up more options for that talent row.

Metmorphosis is too weak
Again feedback in this thread provide reasoning and suggestions.

Soul Fragment mechanics are clunky
The delay with their generation and accidentally picking them up. If spirit bomb was made baseline, it would make it much more viable to only have souls consumed via abilities instead of accidentally walking into them.

(Felgong) #36
I specially think the suggestions made by the OP are interesting regarding talents because I feel that, while the Tank is nice to play and fun, there's a lack of depth, specially interaction between our defensive abilities (hence some suggestions like baking the Legendary boots into a talent made me so interested).
Whenever we tank in Legion with a VDH we specifically tought about which legendaries/talents to use (use the boots in KJ so that we can have Fiery Brand up for each tanking round, as we really needed it) and this pre-planning strategy adds a lot of fun. Many talents do not interact with our defensive abilities at all, they are offensive talents maybe due to Charred Warblades (our fire damage healed us back), that is gone in BfA.
In terms of Tanking, if you don't take Soul Barrier, you basically
1) Use shear
2) Use Soul Cleave

and use Demon Spikes on the pull or to give your healers a break. If in a given raid we have a boss that doest continuous heavy (physical) damage, probably we'll spec into Void Reaver (to have 6% more EHP) and the only decision-making we'll do is DS usage and our CDs.
When I compare to other tanks I play, I see more possibilities to think about their defensive strategy than a VDH: If you are going to stack Ironfur or Not, couple or not with Frenzied Regen; Keep Ironskin brew up or clear stagger? Clever usage of BOK to stop stagger and than double-clear it?
The tank is indeed super-fun and the mobility is addicting, but I feel that it lacks in talents that interact with our defensives, changing it, to adapt from boss to boss in a Raid scenario.

(Bigdiggles) #37
Have given this some thought and if spirit bomb was made baseline (suggestions and reasoning explained within this thread), there would need to be a talent to replace it.

This is where Fel Eruption would make a good fit.

Vengeance has Fel Eruption as a talent on live, so it would not be anything usual added to their tool kit. As a talent it would fit well within that row, and offer a single target talented stun option. This would provide a viable choice, especially in dungeons, since VDH is the only tank that lacks a stun in BFA (correct me if I’m wrong).

(Bigdiggles) #38
Only one change to DH from yesterday’s patch. I understand there’s a lot to do and precious time remaining. I really hope Bliz will take a look at demon hunters Vengeance and Havoc; Both are in need of some critical adjustments.

I made a thread earlier about the possibility of a third Demon Hunter spec. While the player base would be thrilled with this I’m sure, it would be really best to see the two specs that we have balanced and in good playable condition.

(Areys) #39
I feel like both Havoc and Vengeance aren't far from feeling complete on beta. (They are close but not quite there yet)

For example, Havoc needs a higher fury cap (120 or more) and Vengeance needs Gluttony base line (like it is in live) and Vengeance Meta needs to feel more impactful to use as a defensive.

I like a lot of the suggestions posted in this thread. I am still hoping to see a blue post telling us what they are trying internally right now.

(Kryonyx) #40
Gluttony should either be baseline or reworked if it stays as a talent. If it remains a talent it should just be changed to lower the CD on Meta when consuming a soul.

Spirit Bomb is still a must pick talent which should also just be baseline.

Unfortunately, since the general consensus amongst the tanking community is that VDH are the best tanks right now Blizzard won't do anything to change us.