Vengeance DH Talent Feedback and Suggestions


(Corbet) #46
06/10/2018 11:28 AMPosted by Kryonyx
For me the biggest problem with VDH in BFA is the rotation. In Legion we need to generate Pain by spamming Shear (or by taking damage), we spend Pain with Fracture to generate Souls and then we spend Souls with Spirit Bomb. This 3 phase rotation is what keeps us so active and synergizes well. In BFA this was changed completely. Now Fracture replaces Shear and has a short cooldown. This leaves us with a pause which greatly slows down the rotation. Additionally we no longer generate Pain by taking damage - which feels very weird thematically. Spirit Bomb and Fracture still remain must pick talents rendering the other talents in their respected rows useless.

If you take a closer look at the BFA rotation you'll really start to notice how out-of-sync it is.

Spirit Bomb remains the go-to finisher and consumes up to 5 Soul Fragments. It uses 0 pain. Soul Cleave is the only ability that we have that actually uses our main resource, Pain. Since Soul Cleave also consumes Soul Fragments it takes them away from Spirit Bomb which can often times be detrimental. If we only use Fracture and Spirit Bomb as our core rotation we will remain Pain capped all the time. The only real benefit of Soul Cleave is for an immediate burst heal which is often not needed thanks to the baseline healing of the Soul Fragments themselves and the added healing from Frailty via Spirit Bomb. It's even lessened more if you take Soul Barrier to absorb damage.

I really hope this gets some dev attention before release.


Spirit Bomb costs 30 pain.

(Kryonyx) #47
06/11/2018 03:41 PMPosted by Corbet
06/10/2018 11:28 AMPosted by Kryonyx
For me the biggest problem with VDH in BFA is the rotation. In Legion we need to generate Pain by spamming Shear (or by taking damage), we spend Pain with Fracture to generate Souls and then we spend Souls with Spirit Bomb. This 3 phase rotation is what keeps us so active and synergizes well. In BFA this was changed completely. Now Fracture replaces Shear and has a short cooldown. This leaves us with a pause which greatly slows down the rotation. Additionally we no longer generate Pain by taking damage - which feels very weird thematically. Spirit Bomb and Fracture still remain must pick talents rendering the other talents in their respected rows useless.

If you take a closer look at the BFA rotation you'll really start to notice how out-of-sync it is.

Spirit Bomb remains the go-to finisher and consumes up to 5 Soul Fragments. It uses 0 pain. Soul Cleave is the only ability that we have that actually uses our main resource, Pain. Since Soul Cleave also consumes Soul Fragments it takes them away from Spirit Bomb which can often times be detrimental. If we only use Fracture and Spirit Bomb as our core rotation we will remain Pain capped all the time. The only real benefit of Soul Cleave is for an immediate burst heal which is often not needed thanks to the baseline healing of the Soul Fragments themselves and the added healing from Frailty via Spirit Bomb. It's even lessened more if you take Soul Barrier to absorb damage.

I really hope this gets some dev attention before release.


Spirit Bomb costs 30 pain.


Ah, you're right. I stand corrected - thanks for pointing that out. However, most of my point still stands. Since it costs 30 Pain and Fracture generates 25 Pain and 2 Soul Fragments you'll want to use it at least twice which will net you 50 Pain and 4 Soul Fragments. This still results in an overabundance of Pain. I think this is why I overlooked the Pain cost of it in the first place since you still end up Pain capped as you generate Soul Fragments for Spirit Bomb to use.

(Bryte) #48
Some feedback from the beta:

Things I enjoy:

-Fracture, I personally (unlike many) like to think about what I press rather than getting a cramp in my hand trying to queue up spells. I really like the charges on this talent and the big gain of soul fragments.

-Soul Barrier and Last Resort. I enjoy knowing I have access to a fun to a get out of jail free card and a slightly better option in Soul Barrier for precision mitigation.

Things that could be tuned:

-Fallout, I think it would be cool if the fragments stored in addition to the 5 cap if at 5 thus making for more full SC pooling. It kinda works now but seems to be a glitch as it's inconsistent.

-Burning Alive, I do love the interaction with Charred Flesh, but I feel it may need a slight kick to single target, maybe have it refresh duration if it cannot spread?

-Feat of Souls, I'd prefer this to be straight leech than a formula, this is to increase it's attractiveness and simplify its guess work.

-Fel Devastation, would be nice if its healing was increased per target hit so the competition read left to right ->Long term single target/Burst Adds-Burst Heal/More Frequent Burst with less healing, otherwise the heal is a touch to weak and straight forward and could benefit from more flavor. (or maybe also include the benefits of meta while casting? Unsure if it already does or not)

-Feed the Demon & Soul Rending, feels under tuned to fracture at the moment maybe better with more gear, unsure. I'm not a fan of spamming shear for less gain; more work, less payout with these two talents.

Things I dislike:

Void Reaver, standard tank faire, doesn't compete with soul barrier unless you had 6+ targets. I'd prefer this to be nemesis with a damage reduction component tied in. Think that would be interesting.

Things I'd like to see:

A pain spender that isn't tied to soul fragments. I like to pool fragments but to do damage you need to spend them. I understand it's kind of the trade off but I'm not sure you gain to much by being able to save it anyway, this may be a good quality of life update. Perhaps another aoe that does more damage but to 2 targets with a dot to maintain? That sounds more fun than spamming our heal to do damage.

I appreciate your time in reading over my feed back, thank you.

(Bazeleel) #49
Bumping thread so blizzard can ignore our feedback more :)

(Felgong) #50
I think the spec is functional. I understand why it's considered the best tank spec as off now: we are playing inside dungeons, and most of the playerbase is playing up to heroics. It's no mistery that VDH is very good in dungeons, specially with the current numbers.

What I don't like:
- I use Fracture. I use Soul Cleave, and Immolation in CD. It's basically too simple. We have in legion the minimum rotation for a spec, in my eyes.
- Capping fragments to 5. At least a talent should allows us to increase that cap. (Havoc has the same problem of capping resources, its a class-wide problem)
- We have received zero legendary effect. none. There are nice suggestions made by the OP, the direction is to make our talent tree more interesting, specially when it comes to tanking. We were created with an Artifact AND legendaries. To tank KJ without the boots left you without Fiery Brand for Felclaws. It just feels right to have this as a talent, as many of our talents are rather uncompetitive, just look at our first row.
- There's no way to forget that Meta is one of the worst tank CDs out there. It does feel unrewarding to press.

(Unread) #51
We definitely need something else in the mix: I feel “effective”, but not excited, when playing Vengeance.

The lack of any considerable procs to prioritize contributes to this.

The recent update to Ret Paladins to address a similar problem (via Art of War) would help add some variety to the Vengeance gameplay.

Which spells are being removed from GCD in 8.1?
(Saintmane) #52
Since DHs already have a lot in common with Warlocks, how about giving this class the Healthstone ability?

Having only one class be able to do this in raids is difficult for the smaller groups that don’t have locks. And I’m sure the warlocks wouldn’t mind divvying up their responsibility. I always feel bad for warlocks in the raid when I boss them around asking for soul stones, summoning portals, health stones and gateways.

(Ferenn) #53
Fracture really should be baseline. It goes such a long way to make Vengeance feel more fluid. I like the general flow of using Shear to build and Fracture as the primary spender on live. I’m not sure how I feel about it as a replacement for Shear.

I like the OP’s idea to return Darkness. It would make for a great replacement to Wards and give Vengeance a bit more raid utility. Currently Vengeance is kind of lacking in that department.

I know some people want Soul Cleave to go. I’d like it to stay. Just make it worthwhile to use. It might be tricky to increase its healing, but maybe it could do more damage or debuff targets hit by it. Maybe just reduce its cost so that you get more attacks with it than you would with Spirit Bomb. To be completely honest I think the best thing would be to have Shear as a builder, Fracture in its current form as a spender, and remove Spirit Bomb or rework it so it was more on par with Soul Cleave.

(Unread) #54

• Chaos Brand (New) Your Fire damage brands the target, increasing magic damage taken by 5%. Demon Hunter - Vengeance Spec.

• Fiery Brand Brand an enemy with a demonic symbol, instantly dealing [ 133.17% of Attack Power 311% of weapon damage;] Fire damage and reducing the damage they deal to you by 40% for 8 sec. Demon Hunter - Vengeance Spec. 30 yd range. Instant. 60 sec cooldown.

• Immolation Aura Engulf yourself in flames, instantly causing [ 24.57% of Attack Power ] Fire damage to enemies within 8 yards and radiating [ 9.17% [ 311 + 9.17% of Attack Power ] Fire damage every sec for 6 sec. Generates 20 Pain over 6 sec. Demon Hunter - Vengeance Spec. Instant. 15 sec cooldown.

(Felglaive) #55
Hello, I don't know if there is a havoc thread; But I am really annoyed that Eye Beam doesn't generate fury. I have to save fury and be extra careful so I can get 2 casts of metamorphosis version of blade dance.

(Kryonyx) #56
Vengeance really needs some attention from the devs. It's way to easy to stay Pain capped and Soul Cleave does not synergize well with Spirit Bomb. Please consider giving us at least 1 more ability to our rotation as well. As it stands Spirit Bomb still replaces Soul Cleave unless we need an immediate heal but even then the heal is small because absorbing 5 soul fragments with Spirit Bomb can often times be stronger.

(Bigdiggles) #57
06/12/2018 05:58 PMPosted by Unread
[quote]
• Chaos Brand (New) Your Fire damage brands the target, increasing magic damage taken by 5%. Demon Hunter - Vengeance Spec.

• Fiery Brand Brand an enemy with a demonic symbol, instantly dealing [ 133.17% of Attack Power 311% of weapon damage;] Fire damage and reducing the damage they deal to you by 40% for 8 sec. Demon Hunter - Vengeance Spec. 30 yd range. Instant. 60 sec cooldown.

• Immolation Aura Engulf yourself in flames, instantly causing [ 24.57% of Attack Power ] Fire damage to enemies within 8 yards and radiating [ 9.17% [ 311 + 9.17% of Attack Power ] Fire damage every sec for 6 sec. Generates 20 Pain over 6 sec. Demon Hunter - Vengeance Spec. Instant. 15 sec cooldown.


We got a couple new changes, although mostly minor. Fiery brand got a decent damage buff. The immo buff doesn’t change the scaling just buffs the ticking damage a bit.

Chaos brand is not new.

And the two talent changes swap positions within the same row (which doesn’t affect anything), so not sure the point of switching talent positions horizontally?

(Ferenn) #58
06/12/2018 06:04 PMPosted by Felglaive
Hello, I don't know if there is a havoc thread; But I am really annoyed that Eye Beam doesn't generate fury. I have to save fury and be extra careful so I can get 2 casts of metamorphosis version of blade dance.

There is a Havoc topic. Several in fact. Also Eye Beam never generates fury unless you take the Blind Fury talent.

(Felgong) #59
Just finished a +2 Atal'Dazar. Yes, the tank feels damn solid. That's not new. I was 324 equiped, so full-heroic, but did well (dmg and mitigation wise) with only 1 piece from Mythic 0.
Our toolset is strong. Mitigation is strong. Talents really need to be more interesting, I maintain that.

(Bigdiggles) #60
I agree with you Felgong. We are in a decent spot, but very pigeonholed into certain talents. I would like to see a few things made baseline: Spirit bomb for sure. Also would like to see the iconic DH ability Darkness come back for Vengeance.

And not to be critical, but was the only point in shuffling a few talents around within the same rows just for appearances? It didn’t actually make any changes other than showing up in the patch notes as a few lines.

(Bodiggles) #61
Looking forward to the Q/A today! Hopefully we hear some info on Vengeance DHs and tanks in general.

(Bigdiggles) #62
Disappointed to not hear Demon Hunters mentioned at all during the Q/A.

DHs talent trees are a mess and currently offer VERY Limited actual choices for viable talent builds.

We have been giving feedback all alpha/beta and have not received any substantial changes in about 6 months.

Havoc is in an equally unsettling place. Can we please get devs to check in and let us know what’s going on?

(Note: the recent talent changes to vengeance weren’t actual changes. They swapped positions of 2 talents within the same row. Please Bliz just because we’re blind doesn’t mean we’re stupid.)

(Shazrek) #63
Hey folks,

I'm new to the thread but I feel the need to give my 2 cents on the VDH. I played VDH (11/11 M) and BDK throughout legion in EU. Therefore my opinion is mostly about high M+ and Mythic raiding, so please keep this in mind. I love this kind of self-sustained play style so I would like to contribute something. IMO especially the VDH felt like one of the strongest tanks in Legion, even at the start when it was seldom picked by any guild.
I haven't been active a lot on beta but I have been following the news and today I did some raid-testing.
Honestly, it feels very strange and slow but that seems to be the case with everyone so whatever.

Main Concerns

What has been striking me most was the following:
- What is the point of "pain"? Seriously. It's all about the fragments and at the moment (waiting for tuning?) there is still no point in clicking Soul Cleave (maybe except for the 110 talent). If you use Soul Cleave you are wasting precious fragments that could be converted into damage (bomb) or healing (barrier). To me it was one of the best things to be smacked in the face and therefore be able to spam Fracture and Spirit Bomb. Sadly, pain through dmg-taken is gone now but at the current state it doesn't matter since the pain-bar in BfA feels as useless as Soul Cleave in Legion.
Also why take away the old Fracture and turn it on its head.
Keep the old Fracture and take away the ability to spawn fragments or something. It would be something to dump our pain.
Soul Cleave does the same damage as Shear, but instead of giving us a fragment it takes them away. By the way, SC does not do fire damage and Spirit Bomb does so it's not even that good as an opener, since it does not apply the debuff.
If you give us back the old, pain-eating Fracture, it doesn't mean the talent needs to change. The talent is fine, honestly, but it leaves a gap. Maybe just rename it to something like... "Sever" comes to mind. I mean c'mon it’s basically a Shear on steroids.
- Fragments are still all-over-the-place but you receive the most damage when you move but you lose your fragments while doing so (looking at you Dark Young Add).
Why not add an ability (talent?) that lets you gather your souls (up to 5 ofc) and let them float around you, ready for use when you need them. Maybe as a QOL Talent instead of Feast of Souls.
- VDH feels very strong but clunky. Why are both "strongest" (since we don’t have anything against magic anymore) CDs, Fiery Brand and Soul Barrier, on a freaking global? Sure with the right Bossmods you can stop doing anything in time and wait for the big hit (which still does not feel good) but now its more like a guessing game.

At the moment these are my main concerns...

Talents

As mentioned in this thread some talents are still pretty trashy. I go with the worst in each row:
Razor Spikes - What the... 20% slow? At least make it a pvp talent then. Still weak compared to others but QOL I guess. How about something that reduces our AM by let's say 5% and giving us +5% on physical dmg done passive in exchange.
Feast of Souls - Simply too weak. How about something that lets us stack more resources for a change. Like keeping up to 7 or maybe 10 fragments around. Or something to help with the issue of 'feasting' on souls by accidentally stepping on them. Souls are clunky; see above!
Charred Flesh - As mentioned maybe add some legendary effect or the ability to extend the duration with Immolation Aura! (Side note: why not make Felblade something like Fel Rush with a small aoe dmg component to quickly pick up adds while moving. No pain generation needed)
104 seems fine, but as mentioned: Fracture left a huge gap to get rid of the pain.
Concentrated Sigils - "/cast [@player]"; Replace with something like the old useless legendary bracers. We could dump pain to gain a bit of cc... or maybe something that enhances our sigils like hunter traps
108 is fine/up to tuning; How much is the chance on Gluttony exactly btw?
However, Spirit Bomb should replace Soul Cleave (which would make SC talents interesting again). It's beyond me how this wasn't done the moment Spirit Bomb was changed in Legion. Half of our Artifact was infact useless.
A short time in Meta after Fel Devastation would give this an interesting defensive componentn indeed.
110 fine, too. Of course, there is always the issue of Last Resort being mandatory for progress unless some big, frequent magic hit requires Barrier.

Sure Azerite Armor can fix a lot of issues but I prefer a strong core instead of a clunky mess held together by Band-Aids.

(Shazrek) #64
Oh and one last thing: VDH meta lacks animations (and style compared to havoc). Why not give the attacks some magical effects if we can't even use our weapons. And why not add the ability to be immun to knockbacks/fall damage, those don't really apply to the DH anyway. Glide just looks silly. Or just a Glyphe to stay in elf-form (maybe with wings?) like the boomy.

Cheers

(Kryonyx) #65
I would love to see Siphon Power + some magic mitigation get merged into Metamorphosis to some degree.