Vengeance DH Talent Feedback and Suggestions

(Bigdiggles) #191

I had not posted this in the OP, but the burning Alive talent should allow fiery brand to instantly cleave onto all other enemies within range.

If you’re spending a talent, it should really have meaningful effects, and I think the second biggest problem with VDH is the overwhelmingly weak talent options. Biggest problem being active mitigation uptime and general squishiniss and survivability.

(Bigdiggles) #192

Been very hard to have hope for class improvements, when so many threads of genuine feedback have been met with cold silence. Does Bliz even acknowledge that there are issues here?

(Bigdiggles) #193

Are there any upcoming tank balance changes coming? Vengeance has been in a undertuned condition since 8.0, and has received no balance tuning (other than Azerite) so far in the expansion.

Could we at least has some communication from the team, with tank balance and design intentions?

(Jape) #194

Probably won’t be anything but necklace abilities.

If they intended to improve VDH it could have already been accomplished with a hotfix to spikes, meta, or runes.

(Shiraxi) #197

It’s frankly grown tiresome seeing VDH as one of the bottom two tank specs for two damn expansions. Warriors were underpowered, and Blizz catapulted them with tremendous buffs, to the point that they went from the worst spec in the game to the best M+ tank. Why is it problematic for warriors to be bottom of the barrel for a couple months, but VDH languishes there for over two years? Can we not expect to see even some slight buffs to be competitive with other tank specs?

(Mesmer) #198

Here’s to hoping 8.2 brings us some good news, along with our bear brothers.

(Brewdiggles) #199

Any upcoming tank balancing for future patches we can look forward to?

(Mesmer) #200

Honestly I feel that the only incoming “balancing” is going to be via neck traits. I am praying that they give DHs and Druids some boosts, but it sounds like it may be just generic Azerite-related spells rather than class specific which is a shame.
I am hoping we finally see some changes soon, but as each patch passes with crickets I’ve become less surprised.

(Reese) #201

Other tanks are going to get neck traits too which will keep them ahead. DHs need more than that just to stay relevant.


I agree with you, I think Blizzard is going to do our balancing through the neck for the upcoming patches and i do think it will be nice to have a little bit of a boost that might get us back on par with the other tanks in the higher end of content but my biggest concern with this is that it is just a temporary solution because once next expansion comes or the neck is removed we are just going to run into the same problems we had in legion when legendaries and artifacts were removed. It will leave us with big holes in our spec again. In saying this I personally hope they make adjustments to our base skills/talents so we can have a more long lasting balanced class going forward. This maybe help bring about a true class identity with a niche for tanking mobs and bosses and not just say we are a “mobile tank” because when it comes down to it a tank is suppose to tank not run away at the sign of mobs. Plus this “kiting style” or “mobile tanking” is not possible with most raid encounters due many issues and one being it is just too hard to balance a tank that can take no damage while running around trying to keep threat (plus to me this just doesn’t sound fun at all) or the problem of some bosses just being stationary with no ability to have high mobility play a roll into the encounter or the other direction with out having the boss tailored so much to our specific tanking style that other tanks we start running into problems tanking it and no one wants that either. Everyone wants the closest thing to balanced space as possible.

(Mesmer) #203

DHs need more than that just to stay relevant.

Trust me, I’m in full agreement that the problem is with how we came out of Legion. I remember being genuinely shocked as to how few of our artifact traits were carried into BfA (I think the total was three if I’m not mistaken? Two of which are now talents nobody in their right mind takes).
Unfortunately though, we are quite a long way into the expansion, and any major class changes have already been implemented. With the lack of communication from the devs, it’s honestly hard to even tell if they know we’re in a bad spot at this point. Changes could have been easily implemented via hotfix, but here we are, so many months later with no news outside of Azerite PvE-wise since the expansion dropped.

My guess is that the neck is essentially going to “hold us over” for the rest of the expansion until they can take a look at the classes again going into the next.

As we continue to wait with no communication, it’s leaving an extremely sour taste in my mouth. I may just be seeing negatively at this point, but the neck genuinely feels like it’s going to be more of a “you can’t say we didn’t try”. Maybe it will be class-oriented and pleasantly surprise me, but I can’t say I’m holding my breath. Even if it is, that just leaves Limn’s point of being back to square one yet again once the expansion is over.

(Reese) #204

Here’s how I explain it:

Demon Hunter’s were not a great tank in Legion. They had some clear problems with AM downtime, cooldowns, etc. But with some changes, they would be a much sturdier tank. These are changes they needed going into BFA as the Legion model clearly did not work. And Blizzard has taken new expansions as an opportunity to address class problems so some expectation of change was expected.

However, going to BFA, Blizzard did two things:

  1. They decided a less is more approach is better: class changes were super limited compared other expansions.
  2. They actually pruned a bunch of power from tanks.

So not only did they not address the core problems with VDH, they actually are worse now than they were at a similar point in Legion.

VDH really got hosed by Blizzard’s design philosophy this expac and it shows in the results.

(Mesmer) #205

We were definitely not a great tank by any standards in Legion, but hell did our CDs actually feel good to press.
From a raid standpoint, I feel now I’m just holding my guild back in Mythic, and it genuinely sucks being this bad off. Now when I hit meta during a fight it’s literally just to heal myself. Nothing I press feels like it has any weight behind it, and no matter what I do I’m at the mercy of my healers. It’s just a garbage feeling when you physically can’t kite.

(Bigdiggles) #206

Granted we still have a lot to learn about necklace powers, it looks like the powers are specific to the role (tank heals dps), yet generic and not specific based on each class.

Thus this may not address the current tank imbalances we’re experiencing.

I also noticed in the recent Q&A nothing has been said about class balance. What’s the deal Blizzard?

(Mesmer) #207

Figures. I predict we’re going to be pigeonholed into specific essences or it’s not going to address the issues at all.

But hey, that’s just what VDH needs to be viable, right? More health!

(Bigdiggles) #208

Fellow DH, the good news is blizzard has acknowledged that we are weak and is taking steps to tune us up.

The current PTR changes will help for windows when our active mitigation is down (we are the tank that has the lowest time on our active mitigation).

Having mained a VDH for two expansions now, and provides regular consistent feedback to the devs about our current state; I can safely say there are still a few additional areas that may need to be shored up.

The first is meta. For a tank class that has such few cooldowns, Metamorphosis is extremely weak. Easiest solution is to put a damage reduction percent on meta instead of armor. Also it would be cool if meta increased our damage during the ability. We are turning into a giant thrashing demon. So how about crit chance increased by 50% while meta is active.

The second is our group utility. Blizzard has acknowledged that the magic and physical debuff that DHs and Monks bring didn’t work out as they intended. Therefore they are looking at adding other unique buffs to other classes. As it stands for raiding, the magic debuff is the only real group utility that demon hunter tanks bring.

We could use a group mitigation cooldown that helps survivability of the group, like rallying cry or pallys damage shield. Even monks and Druids can offheal. We currently have to way to interact or protect our group, as tanks should.

The easiest solution here would be to give Vengeance the darkness spell back. We actually had it for legion beta, and many raiders surprisingly don’t know that demon hunter tanks were pruned if this ability. Darkness thematically fits the DH style and would be a welcome addition.

The third and final fix that we need is a revision of our relent tree. Currently VDH has the least variety in this talents of any tank, based on loga. This means that we have less flexibility and variety for different fights. The point of talents is so the class doesn’t feel so cookie cutter, and you can customize your characters playstyle. But this is not happening currently, as pretty much all VDHs just take the same talent build for most all situations.

Thank you for reading, and your consideration, and continued effort, Bliz.


I’m not sure why you want darkness, it is not that good. I think if they did give us more utility it wont come in a patch.


From a healer stand point, the DR from darkness is defiantly good. Especially paired with SLT from shamans. My old guild used that religiously back in legion and it still helps in BFA. I would defiantly appreciate darkness being added to the VDH toolkit. As it stands now, we don’t bring any type of raid utility. You can count Chain talent as one, but not many bosses need that.

(Bigdiggles) #211

Darkness is not an effective mitigation cooldown, but for a group of stacked players taking ticking damage it’s not terrible. Combine it with spirit link and it becomes somewhat decent.

(Brewdiggles) #212

Blizzard could re-inspire the player base by addressing one topic, talents.

Many of the classes that are struggling the most have very good suggestions (in this forum!) as how to improve the talent trees, make each room work competitive, and overall give players more situational choices at their prerogative.

In addition I would like to bring back the suggestion of a new level 120 talent row for all classes. This is something that historically we have been given and is an exciting new opportunity for growth for our classes. However no such talent row has been given in the last two expansions in fact. Better late than never.

A small change like this would help to re-inspire the player base and invigorate players to embrace their class and spec again.