Vengeance DH Talent Feedback and Suggestions

(Bigdiggles) #208

Fellow DH, the good news is blizzard has acknowledged that we are weak and is taking steps to tune us up.

The current PTR changes will help for windows when our active mitigation is down (we are the tank that has the lowest time on our active mitigation).

Having mained a VDH for two expansions now, and provides regular consistent feedback to the devs about our current state; I can safely say there are still a few additional areas that may need to be shored up.

The first is meta. For a tank class that has such few cooldowns, Metamorphosis is extremely weak. Easiest solution is to put a damage reduction percent on meta instead of armor. Also it would be cool if meta increased our damage during the ability. We are turning into a giant thrashing demon. So how about crit chance increased by 50% while meta is active.

The second is our group utility. Blizzard has acknowledged that the magic and physical debuff that DHs and Monks bring didn’t work out as they intended. Therefore they are looking at adding other unique buffs to other classes. As it stands for raiding, the magic debuff is the only real group utility that demon hunter tanks bring.

We could use a group mitigation cooldown that helps survivability of the group, like rallying cry or pallys damage shield. Even monks and Druids can offheal. We currently have to way to interact or protect our group, as tanks should.

The easiest solution here would be to give Vengeance the darkness spell back. We actually had it for legion beta, and many raiders surprisingly don’t know that demon hunter tanks were pruned if this ability. Darkness thematically fits the DH style and would be a welcome addition.

The third and final fix that we need is a revision of our relent tree. Currently VDH has the least variety in this talents of any tank, based on loga. This means that we have less flexibility and variety for different fights. The point of talents is so the class doesn’t feel so cookie cutter, and you can customize your characters playstyle. But this is not happening currently, as pretty much all VDHs just take the same talent build for most all situations.

Thank you for reading, and your consideration, and continued effort, Bliz.


I’m not sure why you want darkness, it is not that good. I think if they did give us more utility it wont come in a patch.


From a healer stand point, the DR from darkness is defiantly good. Especially paired with SLT from shamans. My old guild used that religiously back in legion and it still helps in BFA. I would defiantly appreciate darkness being added to the VDH toolkit. As it stands now, we don’t bring any type of raid utility. You can count Chain talent as one, but not many bosses need that.

(Bigdiggles) #211

Darkness is not an effective mitigation cooldown, but for a group of stacked players taking ticking damage it’s not terrible. Combine it with spirit link and it becomes somewhat decent.

(Brewdiggles) #212

Blizzard could re-inspire the player base by addressing one topic, talents.

Many of the classes that are struggling the most have very good suggestions (in this forum!) as how to improve the talent trees, make each room work competitive, and overall give players more situational choices at their prerogative.

In addition I would like to bring back the suggestion of a new level 120 talent row for all classes. This is something that historically we have been given and is an exciting new opportunity for growth for our classes. However no such talent row has been given in the last two expansions in fact. Better late than never.

A small change like this would help to re-inspire the player base and invigorate players to embrace their class and spec again.

(Bigdiggles) #213

The current changes for Vengeance are a good start, but there are a few additional suggestions to make DH tanks competitive for mythic raids:

  1. Add mandatory talents to Vengeance’s baseline kit (Spirit Bomb, Fracture, Sigil of chains). Replace with situational talents that shore up the weakness in Vengeances kit. For instance a spirit bomb talent could be replaced with fel eruption. Fracture could be replaced with a mitigation talent, to be competitive with fees the demon on that row. Chains could be replaced with a talent that adds a snare component to sigil of flame.

  2. Add Darkness back to Vengeance’s kit. Having any sort of raid cooldown would help improve vengeance’s raid usefulness, as currently we only really bring the 5% magic debuff.


Out of laziness and curiosity I decided to switch from SB to fel devastation talent on my 395 VDH

Then I looked more closely at the tooltip, which at my gear level did a whopping 28k damage every 1 minute

How long on average would it take for an SB build to do 28k damage from SB fragment explosions alone in an M+ run ? I’m guessing far less than 1 minute

So many garbage talents…

(Rockford) #215

Wouldn’t it make sense to restore some of the Artifact passives?

With baseline Spirit Bomb, the player is still going to completely avoid using Cleave. Erupting Souls will rectify this over a simple 20% damage increase to cleave as it needs the scaling from souls used.


Necroing this thread is a bad idea because you miss out on all the more recent threads. So I won’t repeat my full argument for why baselining SB, in particular, is a terrible idea. The short version: Baselining a talent that everyone takes because they want to may be a decent idea to open up more choices, but baselining a talent that everyone takes because they have to just locks in the misery of people who are forced into it now. Balance the row(s) instead.

(Bigdiggles) #217

I would suggest adding Spirit Bomb to the baseline kit as a temporary fix until Blizzard is able to completely redo vengeance addressing major issues in their resource generation. Pain is over abundant and mostly meaningless. Souls are clunky and easy to lose. When the water zone happens I’m predicting that many souls straight up disappear.

In the meantime I stand by the idea of adding spirit bomb. Totally fine to disagree. My logic is that SB is always going to be taken because it’s the best way to consume the most souls. It’s truly mandatory for the spec, which can be observed by testing the spec without the ability.

It is a crutch, no argument there. But a necessary one for a spec that was developed in a time of artifact traits, and then had much of its depth pruned when we lost legion artifact.

With spirit bomb the spec is at best tied for bottom with guardian Druid. Without it, it’s dead last by a country mile.

(Jape) #218

Please no.

Spirit Bomb builds also get the least essence variation.

SC needs more help.

(Bull) #219

Rather then making SB baseline just buff soul cleave. This will free up our talents on that row. I’d also like to see shear be dps competitive with fracture, and have fracture as a rotational choice.

(Bigdiggles) #220

Soul cleave has already been buffed. Competitive play will still only see spirit bomb with the current changes, according to the theorycrafting in the DH discord.

The problem as it stands currently is how many souls soul cleave consumes versus spirit bombs consumption.

Given that spirit bomb is still going to be the go to, making it baseline would only provide us with an opportunity to take a new talent from a better balanced talent row.

The truth is we still need more changes, to be competitive with the top tanks.

(Jape) #221

It hasn’t been buffed enough is the point.


Actually, the spec plays fine with a different ability (better, even, since SC becomes desirable and even moving through souls has a use rather than feeling like you lost something). It just doesn’t put up competitive numbers.

That is a problem that the devs need to FIX and not surrender to.

Players lack agency in the face of talent imbalance. They’re forced to play what works even if they hate it (at least, if they intend to do any high difficulty content – and although that is actually only a small minority of the playerbase, “that’s the wrong way to play X” mentalities can spread far beyond content where they are actually relevant).

But it is, or at least should be, different for devs. They CAN return true choice to talent rows that are currently fake choices or noob traps. That’s their freakin’ job! But they can’t do it by baselining the OP thing and forcing everyone to make it part of their rotation – in fact, that would prevent them from ever fixing the problem.

Wait, did I say part? I meant most of their rotation, because that’s the other problem with SB: once you have it, ANY other way of using a soul is wrong, including moving into one. This would be a big problem with SB even if it were balanced IMO, but becomes much worse if it is mandatory or baselined, because then players can’t opt out.

P.S. Although one possible first step toward balancing the row might be equalizing SB and SC at 3 max souls per button press, I get the impression that wouldn’t actually do all that much when the real problem is “all souls heal you, but only SB souls also do AOE damage”. Are there a lot of situations where consuming souls faster matters?


This part I agree with, but the big question is WHAT KIND of changes.

(Rockford) #224

A flat 20% buff, does nothing to rectify the souls imbalance between SB and SC!

Understand that making SB baseline is not going to magically solve this problem!

Cleave’s damage needs to scale with souls consumed. This was the case in Legion!

Normalising this against SB will devalue SB without any need for adjustment to the talent or it’s playstyle, thus allowing for options within the tier.

(Jape) #225

One problem with SB is that SC is so so bad that maximizing dps completely breaks the resource generation/use system for VDH. That’s why it’s so hard to be happy leaving things as they are now.

I’d really love some of the essences to be worth it outside of Anima/Crucible/Sphere/Nullification.

Maybe in 9.0


are you serious ? have you even read the long constructive posts in THIS VERY thread you are posting in ?

(Brujanna) #227

Any time you are in a window without mitigation available.

It isn’t optimal for damage dealing, but using Spirit Bomb more conservatively and actually consuming fragments deliberately with Soul Cleave definitely can result in stronger healing. Our problem still seems to be those periods when we have no mitigation available, and are just getting hit too hard, too frequently for the healing we can do in a GCD to adequately recover.

I kind of wish our Mastery just worked like the old Bonus Armor stat did in WoD. It’s current “win more” nature isn’t very helpful in mythic plus cases. It’s rarer in the conventional raid tank swap paradigm that we are without recourse, but it still happens from time to time.