Vengeance DH Talent Feedback and Suggestions


#173

I bring my inputs from another post. I hope this help too.

First of all, let’s take a look what’s good about Vengeance Demon Hunter right now that all of us would appreciate and enjoyed being one:
1)15 yrd interrupting spell - Disrupt

2)10 yrd purge - Consume Magic

3)Glide (weeee) - Being able to counter knock back with certain dungeon mechanic like Shrine of Storm first boss Surging Rush or would other wise fall to death

4)Demonic Ward - A passive of flat 10% damage reduction that all tank would appreciate

5)High dps output - Though not many VDH know that dps = survival. But yes I would agree in high level M+ dungeon our dps does not matter much.

6)Our colorful Unreal Engine logo - Sigils of Chains, Silence, Misery are powerful tools if use “correctly”.

7)Please feel free to quote my post and add on if you have one

Second of all, let’s us all agree that the issues we’ve encounter during our course of tanking:

1)Super spiky damage intake - Being able to reduce our health from 100% to 20% in less than 2 second often than not made us hit our oh #^%( button and drive our dear healer into panic too. The most common things that was right after we consumed 5 soul shard for the amazing spirit bomb dps and the big damage comes in, we gotta fracture twice again and be able to heal up but the 5 seconds window of big self healing had passed (Refer to Soul Fragments description). But really, I know you folks feel uneasy seeing 5 pretty soul shards floating around while waiting for big damage comes in xD It takes a lot of discipline to be able to resist hitting Spirit Bomb button.

2)Self healing are not as effective as they used to be - I didn’t play VDH during Legion but I read a lot of post about VDH comparison of Legion & BFA, VDH gets tons of nerfs and is now the least favorite tank among players.

3)Healers/Leaders refused to heal VDH and you were uninvited from party - It is not wrong to follow current meta (all hail Drunk Monk and Blood Knight) and we don’t pay your sub and you should enjoy the game “your way”. But you guys must know that we VDHs hurt like hell when being rejected without trying.

4)Lack of CDs like what OP and few others above me had mentioned - Demon spike sure is awesome, but warrior has shield blocks, ignore pain, last stand, and a freaking shield wall.

5)Those under-performed talents, allow me to list some of it
5.1 - Lv 100 Feast of souls, seriously, you call this self healing or?
5.2 - Lv 104 Soul Rending < 5% of smh leech, I would rather this to become the effect of Mastery Fel Blood at least prove more useful.
5.3 - Lv 108 Gluttony, I’ve heard that this used to be a baseline of VDH but now it’s align with our most useful skill of all - Spirit Bomb.
5.4 - Lv 110 Void Reaver - 6% of DR seems pretty nice but seems pretty powerless in front of current high level M+ dungeon.

Here comes what I’m most excited to share, how should we balance and improve VDH without being too OP and at least get some loves from people.

Ideal Changes
1)Fracture, Spirit Bomb, Soul Barrier to be our baseline.

2)Vengeance Brand - (Replace Chaos Brand passive) Your damage brands the target. Granting 5% of leech. Havoc spec remained the same of 5% magic damage increased so at least make VDH more viable.

3)Demon Spikes - Surge with fel power, reduce all damage for 25%(Affect by Mastery). Last for 5 sec. Max 2 charges. CD 15 sec. Able to shorten with haste.

Talents changes
Lv 99 - all unchanged
Lv 100 - left slot Feasts of soul - Soul Cleave heals you for 10% of all damage taken in the last 10 sec over duration of 10 sec. Stacking this effect does not extend it’s duration.
Lv 102 - mid slot Charred flesh - Your Vengeance Brand also increasing 10% fire damage taken from you
Lv 104 - left slot - Fel Eruption - yay stun, cost 30pain (Replacing Soul Rending talent), right slot - Darkness - maybe give 20% dodge are good for us?(Replacing Fracture talent)
Lv 106 - all unchanged
Lv 108 - left slot replacing Gluttony - Blazing Soul, passive - Convert Soul Cleave into Fire Damage. Using Soul Cleave will now consume all lesser soul fragments available, adding 5% of increased fire damage for each soul consumed.

Mid slot Immolation Burst, New Lv 108 talent (Replacing Spirit Bomb talent) - Replaces Immolation Aura. Unleashed burst of fel power within you, causing x fire damage to enemies within 8 yards. You regain 75% of damage dealt to yourself in over 5 sec. Cost 10% health, Generates 20 Pains.

Lv 110 - mid slot Empowered Ward, passive - your tattoo now reduced all damage taken by 20%, and decrease your pain cap to 90

right slot - Soul Reaper - Spawned Lesser Soul Fragments now float and follow demon hunter around for 15 secs. Each granting 3% of damage reduction. Max 5 souls. Big soul fragments completely removed. Personally I think this is not OP and all of us would love.

Generally, the changes above would make talent selection a much challenging and more interesting combination available. Also make VDH a literally soul hunting hunters that require proper pain and soul management in order to play well.

I know, bliz don’t care about community and above are just my dream. I would still remain as VDH until it’s eventual buff xD

P/S: Pardon my English and grammar, I am from SEA and do not have fancy education back then.


(Bigdiggles) #174

So speaking of Talents, it seems that our Last Resort talent is bugged after the last round of Hotfixes.

I reported this in the bug forum, but during our heroic Jaina attempts last at night, the talent was bugged and would not work at all.

I’m sure this was not intentional, but it’s a pretty significant Bug, that needs to be fixed, given the underwhelming state of DH for raid tanking at the moment.


(Bigdiggles) #175

Update on the bug with Last Resort, I deleted my Cache and it fixed it during my testing. Don’t know why this would be caused by the Cache folder, but if anyone is experiencing this bug, that may be the cause/solution.


(Bigdiggles) #176

I was playing Havoc today and had an idea that may be worthwhile for our talents.

Well Havoc has a talent that gives their throw glaive a snare component. Vengeance doesn’t have a consistent snare (sigil of chains is a talent, and can only be cast every 90 seconds), so what if one of our unused talents were similar to the Havoc glaive talent:

Throw glaive now has two charges (or instead now hits 2 additional targets), and applies a 30-40% snare to the target.


(Bigdiggles) #177

During Ions last Q&A he said they were still open to taking abilities off the GCD where appropriate.

As a consideration, how about taking soul barrier off the GCD? It’s a defensive ability and not an offensive ability to be macro’ed together.


#178

Unless the scaling of barrier is fixed, your comment is noise.


#179

Cross-posting my commentary from another thread.
First post:

Some “quick fixes” that could be hot-fixed:
- Demon spikes to three charges (currently two)
- Fiery brand can spread to additional enemies if the talent "burning alive’ is taken. This takes 2.0 seconds to tick and doesn’t refresh the duration. Reduce the time to spread.

In future:
- Adjust meta, add some interaction to our mastery and make it a proper damage reduction and immunity CD.
- Soul barrier requires souls, souls are obtained from doing damage. There are different types of soul fragments. Souls are static whilst damage output and intake inflates. Consuming souls scales with damage taken. Soul barrier scales with attack power. One of these scales with content, the other scales with gear and not content. Revisit design decision.

Second post:

I replied earlier with some things what we’ve all discussed at length in various forums, highlighting what I believed to be minimal impact hotfixes. I missed a great one, as “Razergirl” mentioned, we have Demonic Ward which is a 10% DR passive.
I wonder what the class balance would look like if that passive were adjusted in a hotfix. i.e.: if “Demonic Ward” was adjusted to -14% instead of -10%

The rest of the talent tree stuff was out of scope of the other thread.


(Varsity) #180

Coming from legion, the only time i ever played my dh was to tank m+. I really miss the feel of legion vdh.

Fracture being moved to a builder that replaces shear instead of a spender feels awful. were absolutely flooded with pain in most situations, spirit bomb isnt enough to keep it all spent, and soul cleave feels bad to hit. it heals for next to nothing and only sucks up 2 souls instead of all 5 now.

any time we absolutely need heals it always feels like we get more out of spirit bomb and the 5 souls instead of soul cleave, our dedicated “self heal”

I love spirit bomb, its fun, applies the debuff and is good dps, but coming from legion, losing our meta leech, losing the chance to proc meta with souls, we’ve just lost so much defensive ability. we just fall over.

people in my m+ community know that vdh is the squishiest tank by a mile, and i always joke with them “nah dude, vdh has the best defensive ability in the game, its called infernal leap.”

at a certain point every tank has to kite in m+, but vdh just runs out of steam so incredibly fast. nothing we do has the same longevity other tanks have and we just have to pack our bags and run away with infernal leap.

in legion we had some of the best aoe dps, the 2nd best self healing, and respectable tankiness. now we have none of that. we cant do dps if were running away.

we need something back. rebuff spirit bomb to 20% leech or let us have gluttony and soul rending back without sacrificing fracture and spirit bomb, vengeance just feels like absolute booty to play without them.

id also be remiss if i didnt mention how absolutely stupid it is we still absorb souls by moving over them. they store 8% of the dmg we took in the last 5 sec in each soul, theyre our literal one way to have some sort of control over our survivability, and youre telling me if i want to tank a waycrest manor or tol dagor, i have to stand absolutely still to avoid sucking up my souls at the wrong time because they literally spawn inside my character? the same for any stationary boss.

for a brief moment in time this was actually fixed in beta, we no longer absorbed our souls with movement, but for some unbelievably dumb reason it was changed back.


#181

I keep logging onto my monk, but I just can’t do it. I just want to have fun tanking with my DH again, honestly who made these dumb class changes.


(Bigdiggles) #182

Good feedback guys keep It coming.

The community perception won’t change until Blizzard makes changes to tank balance.

Since BFA was released we haven’t seen any PvE changes, other than Azerite traits.

Because of Blizzards lack of communication, it makes it difficult for the VDH community to know if we are not getting changes because Blizzard does know there are tank imbalance issues, or if they don’t know how to fix the issues, or if they simply don’t care.

As of this point in mythic BoD, Vengeance is the least progressed tank based on the mythic raid statistics, even below Guardian Druid.

Both Vengeance and Guardian need some tank improvements, as we are in the bottom tier of raid tanks and mythic plus tanking.

Admittedly we probably need an entire talent tree RE-work, Ion has said not to expect major changes until 9.0. We need to have some of our talents moves into our baseline kit: Spirit Bomb, Fracture, and Sigil of chains.

But if they could simple extend the duration of Demon Spikes by 2 seconds, add the darkness cooldown, and Buff meta - we could at least survive.

Literally, because our tankiness and survivability is lacking and that’s why pug groups don’t want us, nor guilds want to recruit us. Community perception, Blizzard.


(Mesmer) #183

It honestly does feel like we’re talking to a brick wall currently. I understand that there’s a lot of issues going on with every class right now, but to not have any sort of alterations since launch is extremely disheartening.

Normally I’m extremely patient when it comes to balance because I understand it takes a lot of time and effort, but our continuous lack of changes and communication makes me feel like we’re pushing for improvements that won’t happen and we’ll be stuck in this state well into the next few tiers.

I’ve seen others discuss how Havoc is currently performing relatively well in terms of both raiding and M+, and they believe lack of attention Vengeance is getting is a result of that since we can simply just swap to Havoc. It’s sad to say but I can almost understand where they’re coming from at this point.


#184

It has been like this since beta. Long threads just asking for basic info on what blizz tank design was aiming for were ignored. It is hard to provide feedback when you do not even know what their design goals are. At this point it seems like tanks are just there to taunt swap at X stacks, and put our lives in healers hands (and try not to fall asleep).


(Bigdiggles) #185

If we had a third (ranged) spec if would be easier for people to swap specs for DH. Having 2 specs is a bit constrictive when it’s either melee dps or Tank.

Not saying it’s okay to neglect balancing specs, but when one spec is quite behind in terms of balance, it just makes it even worse because DH only have 2 spec options.

I don’t think anyone expects that Blizzard would add a third spec this expansion. We do (rightfully) expect Vengeance to be balanced, so we are not in the worst tier of tanks for an entire expansion. Historically Vengeance has never been top tier. We were mid tier for Legion, and with the removal of the artifact traits and legendary weapons we have fallen to the bottom.


(Tesarion) #186

So, I know that we’re not havoc, so it isn’t as important, because vengeance isn’t played much. But seriously, this whole mandatory single playstyle thing is pretty frustrating. And vengeance has been bottom of the barrel since release. I’d really like to hear if blizzard has any intentions of improving vengeance before next xpac, because it’s current state is really quite bad. People saying that vengeance is good in mythic plus… pretty much every tank is good in m+ right now.

Pain feels so incredibly meaningless ever since fracture was moved to being a builder rather than a spender. Pressing soul cleave feels so incredibly pointless.

Soul fragment auto consume on walkover REALLY sucks. Like, really bad. If you need proof, try running the fracture/spirit bomb build in a dungeon. See how often your fragments get auto consumed, especially in the smaller dungeons. This is unpreventable, and when this happens, it makes the rotation even more choppy. You’re sitting on max pain, 2 fragments when you should have 4, knowing you can’t soul cleave because it will consume and waste the fragments, you can immo aura which overcaps pain, throw glaive… which does nothing, or you can wait for the fracture recharge. Can soul fragments please not be consumed when we walk over them? A lot of the time they seem to literally spawn straight into us.


(Bigdiggles) #187

I don’t know what’s going on with Blizzard’s communication regarding spec design intentions.

We have provided feedback and evidence that Vengeance is significantly underpowered this expansion. Since 8.0 we have had no changes outside of minor Azerite adjustments.

We have also had ZERO communication from the devs regarding Vengeance and tank balance.

Having said all that, I don’t want to make a negative post with complaints and no inherent positive value, so here goes:

As a suggestion, what if there was some interplay with crit and the uptime of Demon Spike?

So for instance, either a flat modifier like for every 10% extra crit from gear, the duration of Demon Spikes is extended by 1 second.

Alternatively, for every time fracture crits (or shear, but everyone runs fracture and this is another issue entirely) the cooldown of Demon Spikes is reduced by .5 seconds.

These are both creative ways to deal with our largest weakness - our survivability due to large active mitigation windows. There are a mountain of additional issues that Vengeance faces with our talents, raid utility, and defensive cooldowns; but for now this would help us until the devs have time to make major changes.


#188

there is zero communication from the devs regarding vengeance and tank balance because most of the community team (the same ones dealing with class feedback projects) just got fired, at this point the earliest meaningful changes this spec can expect is 8.2


(Bigdiggles) #189

Also, I don’t believe this has been posted in this thread before, but Soul Barrier has no reason to be on the GCD. It’s 100% strictly a defensive ability and boy does it feel bad when you die quickly because you were waiting on a GCD for your defensive ability. Happens more than you’d think.


(Bigdiggles) #190

Crickets and tumbleweeds.

To add to the soul barrier thing, Ion said they were still taking feedback on abilities that don’t have a reason to be on the GCD. Much like Ignore Pain, Soul Barrier has no reason to be on the GCD.

Also could Vengeance please be given the Darkness spell, as a tiny bit of added raid utility for the class that is most behind in Mythic Raid progression this tier.

(Reference: As of the time of this posting, VDH is the only tank class that hasn’t killed Mythic Jaina)


(Bigdiggles) #191

I had not posted this in the OP, but the burning Alive talent should allow fiery brand to instantly cleave onto all other enemies within range.

If you’re spending a talent, it should really have meaningful effects, and I think the second biggest problem with VDH is the overwhelmingly weak talent options. Biggest problem being active mitigation uptime and general squishiniss and survivability.


(Bigdiggles) #192

Been very hard to have hope for class improvements, when so many threads of genuine feedback have been met with cold silence. Does Bliz even acknowledge that there are issues here?