Vengeance DH Talent Feedback and Suggestions


(Bigdiggles) #1
Hi all. I have played DH as my main for all of Legion, and have been tanking as Vengeance for the last few raid tiers. I am familiar with the class, and have been enjoying testing out the BFA beta.

Having said that, here is my feedback for the current VDH talents in Beta. I include my suggestions to change the least powerful talents, to make them more competitive with all talents in that row. I think that is important because currently there isn't a lot of talent variety taken.

Row 1
Abyssal Strike - Infernal Strike's range is increased by 10 yards, its cooldown is reduced by 8 seconds.
- Most picked talent. No changes suggested.

Agonizing Flames - Immolation's Aura increases your movement speed by 30% and increases its damage by 20%.
- Suggest adding "Immolation aura also reduces the cooldown on Fiery Brand by 2 seconds for every target hit by immolation", aka baking the legendary boots ability in.

Razor Spikes While demon spikes is active you deal 15% increased physical damage, and your melee attacks snare the target by 20% for 6 seconds.
- Weak and uncompetitive talent. Suggest adding to the talent "Also extends the duration of Demon Spikes by 2 seconds".

Row 2
Feast of Souls -Soul cleave heals you for an additional 2,024 over 6 seconds. .
- Not competitive Suggest increasing the HOT component, or at least letting the HOT stack with itself, which it does not appear to be doing.

Fallout - Immolation's Aura initial burst has a chance to shatter Lesser Soul Fragments from enemies.
- Most competitive talent. No changes needed. However would like to see the percentage chance listed in the tooltip.

Burning alive Every 2 seconds your Fiery Brand deals 141 damage, and spreads to 1 nearby enemy.
- Weak and uncompetitive talent. Suggest altering the mechanic to allow Fiery Brand to stack additional Fiery Brand Stacks on target, if there is only 1 target in range." If stacking on same target damage component would stay consistent, but damage reduction would need to be reduced with each stacking application ".

Row 3
Flame Crash - Infernal Strike's creates a Sigil of Flame when you land.
- Most picked talent. No changes suggested.

Charred Flesh - Fiery Brand increases the fire damage you deal to your target by 20%.
- Super weak and uncompetitive. Suggest increasing the percentage to 40-50%. And/or "Extend the duration of Fiery Brand by 1 second, for every tick of immolation aura the target is hit by.

Felblade Charge to your target and deal 1,219 fire damage to the target. Shear has a chance to reset felblade.
- Relatively weak and out of place talent. Suggest switching positions with Gluttony, in Row 6 talents. No other changes suggested.

(Bigdiggles) #2
Part 2.

Row 4
Soul Rending - Leech increased by 5%. Leech increased by 25% when Metamorphosis is active.
- Fairly weak talent choice. Suggest increasing the leech when Metamorphosis is active to 30-35%, since Meta has been nerfed since Legion and feels pretty underwhelming. This way Meta is buffed a little more if you choose this talent

Feed the Demon - Consuming a Soul Fragment reduces the cooldown of Demon Spikes by 0.5 Seconds.
- Not competitive with Fracture. Suggest adding in a mini painbringer (artifact ability from Legion) that reduces damage consumed per soul fragment by 1% (was 5% in legion) for x seconds.

Fracture Rapidly slash your target for 2,228 damage, and shatters 2 lesser soul fragments from them.
- Most popular talent, no changes suggested.

Row 5
Concentrated Sigils - Sigils are now targeted at your location, and their duration is increased by 2 seconds.
- Suggest increasing their duration from 2 to 3 seconds.

Sigil of Chains - All enemies within range of the sigil are pulled into the center and snared.
- Suggest that this talent be made baseline for Vengeance. It is often not much of a choice in dungeons, and other content. Suggest after this be made baseline, the replacing talent has the ability of the Legion VDH legendary bracers: Using Soul Cleave reduces the cooldown on a random sigil by 8 seconds. Specific details of this may need adjusting.

Quickened Sigils All sigils activate 1 second faster, and their cooldown is reduced by 20%.
- Underwhelming talent, suggest that this talent reduce the cooldown on Sigils, so that they cast instantly. Keep cooldown reduction to 20%.

Row 6
Gluttony - Consuming a soul fragment has a chance to activate metamorphosis for 5 seconds.
- Suggest swapping position of this talent with Felblade, of row 3. Also would like to see the % chance of activating listed in the tooltip. May need slightly buffing % chance.

Fel Devesation - Unleash the fel within you, damaging enemies directly in front of you for 5,093 Fire damage over 2 seconds. Causing damage also heals you for up to 13,395 health.
- Not competitive with Spirit Bomb. reducing the cooldown to 30 seconds, or doubling the damage and healing done. Also possibly make the healing done affect friendly allies within range of the cone. This would give VDH a touch more group utility.

Spirit Bomb Consume up to 3 Soul fragments within 25 yards and then explode, afflicting nearby enemies with Frailty for 20 seconds and damaging them for 622 Fire per fragment.
- Most popular talent, no changes suggested.

Row 7
Last Resort - Sustaining fatal damage transforms you into Metamorphosis form, and grants you 30% health.
- Very powerful. No changes needed.

Void Reaver - Enemies struck by Soul Cleave do 8% less damage to you for 4 seconds.
- Not competitive. Suggest changing to "Enemies struck by Soul Cleave do 10% less damage to you, and 5% less damage to allies for 4 seconds

Soul Barrier Shield yourself for 12 seconds, absorbing 16,871 damage. Consumes all Soul Fragments within 25 yards to add 3,374 to the shield per fragment.
- A decent talent, but still not super popular. Suggest keeping the power of the talent the same, but increasing its utility by adding: "Soul Barrier is castable on a friendly allied target, if enemy is targeted when cast, Soul Barrier is applied to yourself.

Please think over and consider these suggestions! I think they would go along way to giving the VDH more depth, by increasing the viable talent choices, without buffing their overall power too much.

(Bigdiggles) #3
Part 3
(Other non- talent VDH feedback)

1. Soul fragments feel awfully clunky
Soul Fragments do not work very well now. This has been mentioned before on the forums, even the slightest movement will unintentionally consume nearby souls and that is a very clunky mechanic for our secondary resource system. Please work on improving.

2. Hello Darkness
Please please add Darkness back to the VDH!! We had this spell in Legion Beta, and when Legion launched it was removed from VDH and given only to Havoc. With the loss of Empower Wards, Soul Cleaver, and Fracture/Shear being combined, please give us Darkness back!

3. Meta is underwhelming
Metamorphosis is our signature ability. During Legion when you popped Meta you felt like a beast and would likely survive until it ran out. Currently in Beta it feels a little weak and lackluster. Some of the above talent suggestions may help, but it would be nice to have something else included with meta. Maybe a big heal, maybe reset the cooldowns on your demonspikes/sigils/fiery brand. Maybe it could include the magic absorption from empower wards that we are missing. Also suggest transforming some of your abilities into more powerful versions, the same way Havoc does with its chaos strike. There are lots of options, but just a little buff in the pants to make it more impactful.

Thank you for reading. Feedback welcomed.

(Saintmane) #4
The thing is Vengeance feels pretty strong on Beta right now, but that's just balance numbers, and easily adjustable when they do a tuning pass. The functionality, mechanics, and rotation is what I'm concerned about.

(Steakidari) #5
I feel like they just need to dump Soul Cleave at this point, it feels kind of meh in the rotation. And they just keep trying to force it when nearly every dh on live and beta rolls with spirit bomb.

(Bigdiggles) #6
05/23/2018 10:27 AMPosted by Steakidari
I feel like they just need to dump Soul Cleave at this point, it feels kind of meh in the rotation. And they just keep trying to force it when nearly every dh on live and beta rolls with spirit bomb.


I agree with you that soul cleave feels under tuned. This could easily be tweaked with numbers to make it more impactful.

As for everyone choosing Spirit bomb, this is why I am hoping they make some changes to our talents to give us actual choices. Spirit bomb feels pretty much mandatory for dungeon content.

Edit: or possibly make spirit bomb baseline.

(Felgong) #7
I decided to main a VDH since the dawn of Legion and suffered (well) our issues, so I'll add what I feel from having a 120 VDH in beta too.
Three basic things, to be very to the point:
- The basic kit is good, but there's a shortage of abilities.
- Soul Barrier (talent) feels good, but we lack a powerful Tank CD
- There are nice talents to pick, but the whole talent tree is in dire need of rework

Now to your own suggestions:

Suggest adding "Immolation aura also reduces the cooldown on Fiery Brand by 2 seconds for every target hit by immolation", aka baking the legendary boots ability in.
I CANNOT POSSIBLY EXPRESS HOW AWESOME IS THIS IDEA. I see, for example, that Blood had some legendaries come back as talents and I think this is absolute genius. Why? Because as it is, picking Abyssal Strike is a no-brainer. The competitors are so lackluster that I don't have even to think about it. Also, the boots legendary was one of the best for mitigation, specially in KJ. So you pick between mobility, which is nice for dungeons or more uptime of our best tank CD.

Also, "Also extends the duration of Demon Spikes by 2 seconds" to Razor Spikes just makes a lot of sense. First pick is about mobility, 2nd about more uptime in our tank CD and the third more uptime on our AM. Absolute genius your suggestion, congratulations. Alternatively, we could add the effect of the pants: "add another charge of Demon Spikes". So you chose either the pants or the boots, it's not OP because you have to chose and we recover our two best legendaries for mitigation.

2nd row: agree with fallout and feast of souls (fallout = dungeons, FoS = less enemies, raiding). For the third, I'd prefer to bake in the Fiery Demise talent "Also increases your fire damage to targets under the effect of Fire Brand by X%". Naturally, scrap the Charred Flesh talents, its absolutely too weak.

3rd row: Basic replace Charred Flesh (already baked into Burning Alive) with Flaming Soul artifact talent - modified - "Every fragment consumed extend the duration of your Fiery Brand by 0.5 seconds.". Fleblade just needs to be buffed, IMHO (will be the DPS talent).

4th row: 100% agree with your suggestions.

5th row: Sigil of Chains is the most picked talent, so it really doesn't need to be buffed. Specially for dungeons.
Concentrated Sigils - Just scrap that talents, it's useless after macros that target yourself. Replace with "Gaining Meta resets the CD of your sigils and adds one charge of demon spikes" - that applies both to Pressing Meta, Meta from Gluttony or Meta from Last Resort. Will be the raid talent due to extra mitigation
Quickned Sigils - agree with you

6th and 7th row: I am ok with those rows, specially with my suggestions above. I also think that Fel Dev needs to be more powerful to compete with Spirit Bomb, but number tuning isn't done yet.

(Lildan) #8
I disagree with the fracture choice. To me it feels clunky since it has a cooldown. I honestly don't mind spamming shear as much as other people do because I also enjoy the consistency. With feed the demon, I'm able to have much more uptime on the spikes. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's just been my personal experience.

(Calistraza) #9
The biggest change I would like to see is a buff to soul cleaves damage or make the souls you absorb do damage like the artifact trait did. At least bring it closer to SpB So there isn't a huge disparity between SC and SpB. And when you take SpB it replaces SC and costs the same amount of pain to use. So basically you decide whether you want the big heal from SC or the small But more frequent heals from the SpB debuff. So you won't be forced into taking SpB and just making SC a pain dump.

Also please lower the cooldown on fracture by one second that way it smooths out the rotation. The way it is now the rotation is very clunky and there is empty GCDs.

Overall I love the changes to Vengeance and it is in a really good spot for bfa. I would just really like some choices in the talents and not be forced into a certain build. They way SpB is you are pretty much forced to take it.

(Felgong) #10
Althought Fracture has a CD, and sometimes (not really often) i can't use it, I always have something to press, so it really doesnt feel horrible to me. If fracture is in CD, most likely I can SpB or SC or throw Sigil of Flames. I'm glad it is in a CD, so people who rather spam shear don't need to deal with fracture's CD (Keep in mind it's probably reduced by haste so I think it will be more than fine with enough gear)
I also agree that SC needs to be buffed to compete with SpB

One thing I particulary liked is how "consume souls" is a lot of our self-healing, I am already changing how I mitigate damage storing souls and doing 2xSpB to heal back. Basically 2xShear -> big hit -> 2xSpB (or SC). That really makes me more hopeful for M Raiding and sort of adds a depth of gameplay.

(Feltrinity) #11
05/24/2018 08:17 AMPosted by Lildan
I disagree with the fracture choice. To me it feels clunky since it has a cooldown. I honestly don't mind spamming shear as much as other people do because I also enjoy the consistency. With feed the demon, I'm able to have much more uptime on the spikes. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's just been my personal experience.

If I take Felblade, Fracture's CD actually does not bother me as much as I thought it would, but Felblade needs around a 75% damage buff because it feels so puny.

Here are my other first impressions:

Ever since the huge nerf to agonizing Flames in Legion (40% to 20%), hardly anyone uses it. I would like to see it buffed up to 30% extra damage, but the suggestion the original poster made is pretty creative. We need some more defensive abilities baked in instead of just damage.

Speaking of defensive abilities, I do not like that Fiery Brand is on the GCD. Multiple times in the beta, I have pressed it only to find out a GCD later that it was not cast. I don't want to have to spam it like a DPS ability, and I really don't like that so much of our DPS is focused around it even in Legion. For example, I hold Fiery Brand for Foebreakers on Mythic Aggramar. After the fight, I look at my damage done, and it just feels so bad.

Concerning the Burning Alive talent, adding a single target aspect to it like the poster suggested would be interesting. As far as AoE, I think it needs to spread every 1 second. It feels bad when the add dies and FB does not have a chance to spread to the other mobs. I would like to see the synergy of this combined with the suggested changes to Charred Flash and Agonizing Flames.

The Razor spikes suggestion would be nice since I liked using the legendary legs on many fights in Legion, and this change could in part, make up for their loss. Consider increasing physical damage to 20% to make up for the lost fire damage and all the interactions involved such as FB shields from azerite armor. Maybe consider increasing the snare percentage a bit for kiting in M+ to make it more competitive with Death and Decay.

I would like to see Feast of Souls have a dynamic aspect to it, such as Soul Cleave heals an additional 4% of the damage taken over the last 8 seconds. As it is currently, it might be acceptable to take the talent at launch in some cases, but it will never be taken later on in the expansion.

The suggestion concerning Fel Devastation healing additional nearby allies with a hot or just a channel would be AMAZING so it could compete somewhat with Vampiric Aura. A 45 second CD would feel more appropriate, or maybe it could interact with another spell to reduce the CD.

I don't particularly like Gluttony as a talent. I think it should be a baseline passive. It is a nice bonus when it procs, and it's fun, but you can't count on it like you can a Fel Devastation healing you back up or the constant leech from soul bomb. If Gluttony will not be a baseline passive, I would prefer this talent to act as a CD reduction on Metamorphosis. Even though it will be boring, it will be reliable. I would miss turning into a demon randomly during the battle.

Soul Bomb does good AoE damage, but I am disappointed that the leech amount was reduced back to where it was at the start of Legion. Although, I fear if the leech percentage was increased to 15% or 20%, it would be the only talent people used again. Making it baseline would be nice.

The 10 yard range on Consume Magic, I mean Disrupt, is limiting. I'd like to see that increased back to 15 yards for Vengeance only. If it's a PVP issue, just reduce the range in PVP. Since we can't Death Grip a casting mob outside of the pack to us (maybe one that Sigil of Chains missed since it's radius is so small), it was nice to be able to interrupt that mob so that it would run toward us.

Adding back Darkness would be a welcome addition to the toolkit... kind of unreliable from a tank perspective, but it's always nice to have some group utility.

Also, I've been saying since DH's came out that either a battle rez or just a regular resurrection spell would be amazing... literally ripping people's souls back from the nether or beyond!

(Felgong) #12
05/24/2018 02:10 PMPosted by Feltrinity
05/24/2018 08:17 AMPosted by Lildan
I disagree with the fracture choice. To me it feels clunky since it has a cooldown. I honestly don't mind spamming shear as much as other people do because I also enjoy the consistency. With feed the demon, I'm able to have much more uptime on the spikes. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's just been my personal experience.

If I take Felblade, Fracture's CD actually does not bother me as much as I thought it would, but Felblade needs around a 75% damage buff because it feels so puny.

Agree with you.

05/24/2018 02:10 PMPosted by Feltrinity

Here are my other first impressions:

Ever since the huge nerf to agonizing Flames in Legion (40% to 20%), hardly anyone uses it. I would like to see it buffed up to 30% extra damage, but the suggestion the original poster made is pretty creative. We need some more defensive abilities baked in instead of just damage.

exactly. his idea is very good.

05/24/2018 02:10 PMPosted by Feltrinity

Speaking of defensive abilities, I do not like that Fiery Brand is on the GCD. Multiple times in the beta, I have pressed it only to find out a GCD later that it was not cast. I don't want to have to spam it like a DPS ability, and I really don't like that so much of our DPS is focused around it even in Legion. For example, I hold Fiery Brand for Foebreakers on Mythic Aggramar. After the fight, I look at my damage done, and it just feels so bad.

Now that you mentioned, it explains why I see myself pressing it twice and paying attention if it it was used or not. I feel that this is going to be hindering our use of a powerful defensive in stressing situations, where we need to take a lot of decisions quickly and have to "trust" that abiltiies are being used.

05/24/2018 02:10 PMPosted by Feltrinity

Concerning the Burning Alive talent, adding a single target aspect to it like the poster suggested would be interesting. As far as AoE, I think it needs to spread every 1 second. It feels bad when the add dies and FB does not have a chance to spread to the other mobs. I would like to see the synergy of this combined with the suggested changes to Charred Flash and Agonizing Flames.

The Razor spikes suggestion would be nice since I liked using the legendary legs on many fights in Legion, and this change could in part, make up for their loss. Consider increasing physical damage to 20% to make up for the lost fire damage and all the interactions involved such as FB shields from azerite armor. Maybe consider increasing the snare percentage a bit for kiting in M+ to make it more competitive with Death and Decay.

I would like to see Feast of Souls have a dynamic aspect to it, such as Soul Cleave heals an additional 4% of the damage taken over the last 8 seconds. As it is currently, it might be acceptable to take the talent at launch in some cases, but it will never be taken later on in the expansion.

We would pick Feat of Souls due to just not having another option against a single target. The talent needs serious buffing or revisiting like the OP suggested.

05/24/2018 02:10 PMPosted by Feltrinity


The suggestion concerning Fel Devastation healing additional nearby allies with a hot or just a channel would be AMAZING so it could compete somewhat with Vampiric Aura. A 45 second CD would feel more appropriate, or maybe it could interact with another spell to reduce the CD.

I don't particualry look forward to that as it's not our class fantasy. We're not vampiric tanks. I think the talent just need an overall buff and possibly rewriting to be very good against single target.

05/24/2018 02:10 PMPosted by Feltrinity

I don't particularly like Gluttony as a talent. I think it should be a baseline passive. It is a nice bonus when it procs, and it's fun, but you can't count on it like you can a Fel Devastation healing you back up or the constant leech from soul bomb. If Gluttony will not be a baseline passive, I would prefer this talent to act as a CD reduction on Metamorphosis. Even though it will be boring, it will be reliable. I would miss turning into a demon randomly during the battle.

[/quote]
I feel Gluttony should remain a talent because many DHs absolute hate it and if the fact that the proc is used in computing our overall defense in Raid Scenarios, it's RNG and out of our control, contributing in making us with unreliable defensives. I really rather have it as a talent than.
I also feel this particular row is competitive, just need number tuning.

(Feltrinity) #13
05/24/2018 04:04 PMPosted by Felgong

I feel Gluttony should remain a talent because many DHs absolute hate it and if the fact that the proc is used in computing our overall defense in Raid Scenarios, it's RNG and out of our control, contributing in making us with unreliable defensives. I really rather have it as a talent than.
I also feel this particular row is competitive, just need number tuning.

True, I was just thinking it could be a nice bonus every now and then, but if if they are looking at our damage taken and saying it's in line because of Meta procs and reducing our on-demand defensive abilities because of it, then it needs to go. It shouldn't be a talent though if so many DHs hate it. It should be changed, so it's not a waste of a talent slot.

On a different note, I haven't really missed empower wards because I have been using Soul Barrier. I am not sure how this will play out when I am doing progression content, and I need to take Last Resort. I like the change that it doesn't require soul fragments to cast. I'm still not sure it should be on the GCD though, but if it's not on the GCD then spells like Frenzied Regeneration would need to be off the GCD as well. I just really hate button mashing defensive abilities.

(Baalzebubb) #14
We are just an inch of being complete as a spec. We just need a Passover on our talent tree and our Tank Cd.
And the ideas discussed here are absolute golden.
This is a fun tank spec that may finally rise to be competitive in raid scenarios.

(Túrks) #15
My only suggestion would be:

Row 6
Gluttony - Consuming a soul fragment has a chance to activate metamorphosis for 5 seconds.
- Suggest swapping position of this talent with Felblade, of row 3. Also would like to see the % chance of activating listed in the tooltip. May need slightly buffing % chance.

Absolutely this! I LOVE the metamorphosis. It's saved my !@#$ so many times when other cooldowns were spent.

(Feltrinity) #16
05/25/2018 10:37 AMPosted by Túrks
My only suggestion would be:

Row 6
Gluttony - Consuming a soul fragment has a chance to activate metamorphosis for 5 seconds.
- Suggest swapping position of this talent with Felblade, of row 3. Also would like to see the % chance of activating listed in the tooltip. May need slightly buffing % chance.

Absolutely this! I LOVE the metamorphosis. It's saved my !@#$ so many times when other cooldowns were spent.

Meta procs are definitely fun; however, they only seem to be useful to me about every 1/10 pulls. When it does line up with a big damaging ability and you have no other cooldowns, it feels amazing and feels like a godsend. Unfortunately if what Felgong said is correct, and Blizzard takes the random procs and damage reduction into account for computing our defense during a fight, then that is very bad. As a tank we want solid defenses, not RNG.

I'd rather them remove Meta procs, slightly lower the armor granted by demon spikes, and buff Demonic Wards back to 20% reduced damage taken, especially since we lost empower wards. I would like to see Meta procs as baseline, but not at the cost of other, more stable defenses.

(Feltrinity) #17
I would also be okay with them completely removing the damage-dealing component of Fiery Brand if it would allow them to take it off the GCD. I know the GCD was meant for offensive spells to establish a rhythm. Sometimes when you need a defensive, it falls outside the rhythm.

(Felgong) #18
05/26/2018 10:28 AMPosted by Feltrinity
I would also be okay with them completely removing the damage-dealing component of Fiery Brand if it would allow them to take it off the GCD. I know the GCD was meant for offensive spells to establish a rhythm. Sometimes when you need a defensive, it falls outside the rhythm.


100% agree. The more I play my beta VDH, the more I feel what's missing:

1) A good Tank CD. It really feels weak, some inc dmg that hits like a truck are magic dmg.
2) A way to convert pain-> fragments, specially now that more than 50% of our healing is due to "consume souls", and it's a nice, addictive and smart way to raise the skill cap, by making fragments heal for a % of inc dmg in the last 5s. The old Fracture did the job. We need it, or really buff Soul Cleave healing without fragments.
3) I don't respec. Ever. 1213233 every damn pull. It's not that I don't want to try other talents, it's that most of them are so obviously poor that there's no point in trying something different. L104 and L108 you could even try to change and use Gluttony + Soul Rending or Feed the Demon to have more uptime on spikes, but frankly, you don't feel slightly weaker, you feel way more weaker.

We have a good build for M+. What's the best build for Raiding that is actually much better than our M+ build?

(Feltrinity) #19
Soul cleave has needed a healing buff since the end of Emerald Nightmare. I don't know why they refuse too look at it. “I just took a 6 million melee hit. Let me spend all my pain using a soul cleave to heal back 1 million.” (sarcasm)

I guess they think it will feel too similar to death strike. They could just address it using the Feast of Souls talent by adding healing additional x% of the damage taken over the last y seconds. That way we can at least choose if we want a bigger soul cleave heal.

Also if they took away the damaging aspect of Fiery Brand to get it off the GCD, they could make Burning Alive add back the damaging component and make it spread every 1 sec.

With these suggestions, I feel like every talent in that row would be useful in different situations.

(Feltrinity) #20
Regarding your Row 5 suggestions. I only ever take Concentrated Sigils when I don't need a grip for the extra damage and silence duration (ie most of raiding), and Sigil of Chains when I do need a grip (ie most M+). I never take Concentrated Sigils. Making the Sigils instant cast would be a welcome change and actually make the talent useful for the interrupt potential.

Alternatively, I would also welcome baking the legendary shoulders or wrists into the Quickened Sigils talent.