Utility and how Warriors have none


(Varrow) #1

In the modern game not bringing any utility to your group is pretty poor, and one of the main reasons you don’t see warriors as part of “the meta” IMO.

The only CC we have takes a talent, and it’s only a short single target stun. We have no immunities. Rallying Cry is not usually very useful outside of raids. Arms has basically the worst defensives in the game and zero self heals. Fury has good self heals, but generally mediocre defensives. Battle Shout can be replaced by a scroll.

Looking at the Stormbolt talent row that makes us choose against Double Time (mobility) or our ONLY CC as a pretty mediocre stun. That would be like if Demon Hunters had Chaos Nova as a talent, instead of a talent that simply makes it better. And then also that row they had to take a talent to have two charges of Fel Rush. Sounds kinda dumb doesn’t it? It’s not any better sounding as a Warrior.

I think Arms desperately needs a better defensive toolkit and/or some kind of self heal. It has no utility, it has the worst survivability in the game. That spec better be the lord of all damage if it’s going to be brought to stuff. And it’s definitely not that either right now.

Give Storm Bolt baseline. Make it really strong, like 8 seconds (reduced duration against players, 5 seconds?). That gives warriors a unique and powerful stun to bring to the table.

I think charge is a chance to differentiate the specs a bit. Give Fury double time baseline, to play into the mobility aspect of Fury. Give Arms back charge stun to play into the tactician and exploiting weaknesses. Then you have to modify the level 30 and 60 rows to make more sense.

FURY

Level 30: Charge/Mobility row. Bounding Stride moved here. Impending Victory - replaces charge “Charge to your target to attack and heal for 10% of your hp, killing blows grant a charge”. Something to grant extra charges of Leap? Stun on leap?

Level 60: Defensive Row. Warpaint can stay. Rampage heals based off rage spent (like legendary manno bracers in Legion). A talent that reduces the cooldown of Enraged Regen.

ARMS

Level 30: Charge/Mobility. They can keep Double Time as a talent. Carry over the Impending Victory idea for Fury. Put Bounding Stride here.

Level 60: Defensive focus. Second Wind can stay, but actually make it more useful instead of being niche AF. Defensive Stance is still good. I’d like to see the cooldown just a bit lower, 4 seconds? That leaves Blizzard needing to come up with new defensive talent, but I believe.


(Chalices) #2

Warriors are swiftly losing their options in truth with more and more ability removals and options. To be fair, Commanding Shout is really the only cooldown out there. and its not all that good. Since they removed the banners that aided the raid.

Its hard to see a future for warriors as they slowly lose their viability and identities. Protection Warriors are 2nd worst tanks for BFA, and their DPS charts are… subpar at best.


(Varrow) #3

Second Wind idea - When the warrior falls below 35% hp they will heal for 30% health and generate 30 rage over 5 seconds. Cannot occur more than once per minute.


#4

Warriors have been obscenely gutted in BFA. Without our shockwave or stormbolt being baseline, we are so far behind all the other classes.

Demon hunters can basically do everything we do AND MORE DPS, MORE UTILITY. It is VERY difficult to get into high M+ keys unless we are prot. Don’t even get me started on BoD. We’re so far behind most classes/specs as well.

Hey Blizzard, could you kindly add shockwave back into our DPS talent tree/give us a CC/something please. Throw us a bone for goodness sake, show us some love.


(Masoschism) #5

First let me start by saying I keep trying to level my warrior (from WoD) but just can’t. While I feel it currently plays reasonably well in the rotation, in PvP I have no utility.

So I get the premise of this post, though having had to deal with warriors on the other side plenty (as one of their victims) I disagree with some of the “solutions”.

I do think this should be baseline for warriors. It is pretty much a necessary ability. I think increasing the duration for PvE utility is also a good idea. However, 5 seconds in PvP is too long. Hell, 4s is too long, though it has been that way for forever so no reason to change it.

One problem with making Storm Bolt baseline is, then all warriors will have more mobility. Warriors do not need more mobility. I play primarily kiting classes (Fire Mage and MM Hunter atm). I can currently kite a warrior (at substantial eventual health loss) if I make no mistakes and he doesn’t have Double Time. That is exactly how it should be. If they do have Double Time I don’t have a chance. That is fundamentally wrong. It should be that both sides have a chance, and victory goes to the person who plays better within the strictures of their toolkit.

There is a flaw with this logic. The flaw is in comparing yourself to DH. DH is a broken spec. Again, I agree that warriors don’t bring anything to the table that others don’t do better, but don’t go there, because no one should be there.

I think this is a good idea. Charge Stun was nice and unique, without being OP. I never understood why they took it away.

I agree with this. I like your proposed Second Wind. I think that would be sufficiently competitive with Defensive Stance, though I would rather see a whole Healing row, and Defensive Stance made baseline. Stance dancing was fundamental to my warrior back in the day. It should be just “what warrior does” AKA baseline.

Along this line of reasoning, I think making Spell Reflection baseline is a good idea (just like it used to be). It is an interesting ability and great defensive that takes skill to master and falls under the utility category.

In addition a return of Mass Spell Reflection (also baseline) on a longish CD (~3 mins) would provide thematically appropriate and unique utility for all areas of gameplay.


(Varrow) #6

I would love to see at least see this interaction return baseline also. I thought defensive stance was pretty well done in WoD (one of the only things about WoD warrior that was nice)

I still miss stances in general sometimes, but the defensive trade off style I think deserves to be a core part of warriors.

Ehhhh, I mean I’m not sure I disagree exactly but also the game is not balanced around 1v1 encounters at all. Even with a baseline Stormbolt warriors still bring less to the table than just about anyone still.


(Masoschism) #7

If a kiting class can’t kite because all other specs that the kiting class WOULD kite have more mobility, then “kiting” is a useless playstyle. Kiting should not be a useless playstyle.

I also disagree the game is not balanced around 1v1. I mean, they say that, but its not true.

The best DPS specs in all areas of PvP are also the best 1v1.


(Varrow) #8

But you can still kite most of the other specs no? Everyone has counters to various things. Kiting is still pretty powerful, and the warrior can still mess up. Other classes are still completely screwed against you. I don’t think you can call that useless by any means.


(Masoschism) #9

No.

Ferals, Monks, Rogues, and DH’s all have more mobility than warriors (without Double Time) and are near impossible to kite, assuming they are good at their class.

That is why there is a 0% participation rate for MM in arena above 1800. They are purely a kiting class with insufficient tools to actually kite anyone.

Whereby insufficient tools, I mean comparative tool kits.


(Varrow) #10

There are no lack of threads on the problems plaguing MM hunters, I don’t feel like that is a good justification. But I also think we’re getting off topic here and not really the point of the thread.


(Masoschism) #11

Listen, for years I played warrior (I’ve played all melee at one time or another). I know what it’s like to be kited. I know what its like to have “even” toolkits. It was fun for me to mongo someone with an insufficient toolkit, it was even more fun to outplay someone on an even footing. It was more fun for me, and healthier for the game.

Currently melee have too much uptime on all ranged classes. Even those designed to keep them away. Of course some are worse than others (as I mentioned above), but Warriors are middle of the pack (again, without Double Time). What they have is what should be nearer to the top, at least with the toolkits that ranged currently have.


(Masoschism) #12

Except that it is topical. You specifically mentioned more than once that you felt warriors needed more mobility. I strongly feel otherwise. Not because I don’t want to play a warrior. I would REALLY like to play my warrior again. I would really like Warrior to get more utility. But ultimately I just want a healthy game with all manner of playstyles being viable, like they used to be.


(Varrow) #13

I don’t feel like that is what I said at all. I did ask for Fury to be given double time baseline, because it is “the mobile spec” but aside from that I actually asked for consolidation by moving Bounding Stride onto the same talent row as Double Time for Arms warriors for example. Whereas now a warrior could take both of those talents.

The vast portion of my post was focused on ways to bring utility to the table and address the survival toolkit of Arms warriors. Maybe it seems like I mentioned mobility a lot because without Stormbolt they would be forced to redesign the mobility talent rows.


(Masoschism) #14

You did mention it specifically for Fury, and you mentioned it implicitly for Arms. If Storm Bolt is baseline, all warriors automatically get Double Time (or in your proposition, some other mobility talent). Double Time is an extremely powerful talent that increases Warrior mobility by a ton. So much so it almost competes with one of the strongest talents in the game (Storm Bolt). With Storm Bolt AND Double Time Warriors would be completely unkiteable with near 100% uptime. Even by those classes specifically designed to do so.

Except none of them do take both of those talents. As strong as those talents are, they are competing with other even stronger talents. Storm Bolt is necessary and so is Defensive Stance/Warpaint. It is a very rare warrior that I meet with both talents. Of course, playing a Kiting class I lose to them in seconds because it is so much mobility as to be ludicrous, but it isn’t done because outside of 1v1 vs a kiting class they are reduced utility.

No one should have baseline abilities or talent choices that automatically wins against all versions of a playstyle. I’m not talking about “counter-classes” here, I’m talking about “counter-playstyle”. On all kiting classes, kiting IS their defense. Being able to counter an entire genre is just not healthy for the game and is currently a huge problem where warriors are a small(er) part. I won’t support making them a larger part.

I know that, and I agree with most of the rest of what you said, at least in intent if not necessarily the specifics. I would really like to see Warriors get more utility. That is why I came to this thread. I want to support it. I do not want to support more mobility though. That’s not healthy in the current meta.


(Juggs) #15

I don’t want Storm Bolt baseline, I want Shockwave baseline.


(Varrow) #16

When i was thinking about this we’d then be just one of the other many classes that have an AoE stun. Most of them with more utility than us still. What are the advantages of Storm Bolt?

  1. Range
  2. Shorter cooldown than most AoE stuns
  3. If they actually increased the duration (they should) it would give us the longest stun in the game
  4. Sure it’s only single target, but the point is to offer something different. Not more of the same.

(Masoschism) #17

It doesn’t need to be “unique” as much as it needs to be effective in group play. An AoE stun has a lot more useful applications in PvE than a single target stun; even if it was 8s long.


(Varrow) #18

I’m not sure I agree. There are plenty of AoE stuns in the game, it’s not exactly hard to find them. If you are just another AoE stun in a raid you probably don’t need it, in M+ you are probably just doing be on diminishing returns more often than not. Which then if you were to compare us to Prot Warriors, Monks, Warlocks, Demon Hunters, we still bring less to the table than they do.

But stunning that more dangerous mob in an M+ pack? When the other mobs don’t really matter? Stunning the raptors on the Conclave fight in BoD. You could stun the Xuen spirits on Jadefire Masters. Even on Conclave when you want AoE stuns if a stun misses, or if your dps falls behind even a DR’d long stun could be enough to save it from getting where you don’t want it.

Also in PvP I find Stormbolt to be the much more versatile option, they aren’t going to let us have both. And it would of course have to have a reduced duration in PvP if they did buff the duration for PvE.


(Masoschism) #19

Fair enough. I am not currently playing a class with a stun (except DH casually) so I was not aware of current Raid encounter mobs that could be stunned. You have brought up some good times to have it.

Of course a long single target stun is much better than a short AoE stun in PvP. Nobody was talking about taking the Stormbolt option away from Warrior. I thought we were talking about increasing utility. Even if you increased the stun duration of Stormbolt in PvP (which I think would be a bad idea) that doesn’t increase Warrior utility, it just makes that one ability more powerful. A baseline shorter duration AoE stun on the other hand has other “utility” uses. Utility is about useful options that promote creative play more than it’s about power. Of course having more useful options IS power, but it’s a power in skillful hands, not a baseline increase in power.


(Juggs) #20

I get your point, but if we are to compete with the dominant meta of DH we need an AoE stun not a single target one. In the Mythic+ environment, an AoE stun is much more valuable than a single target one.