[Updated] Munitions - If RSV was to return

She’s posted on topic previously. (See Post 50.)

A thread has to die first to be necroed. The OP being too busy to respond until later to recent comments directly to/on points relevant to his part in the discussion is hardly thread-death…

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Very very very easily, in fact. Demonic could have been a full spec in and of itself, an echo of Cata-era Demonology, building up energy and then shifting into demon form as it burns off. So many places they could have taken that, building up the differentiation of the abilities between the forms.

Demon Blades already is an entirely different spec, for all intents and purposes. It completely changes the fundamental nature of the rotation. Lean into it with more abilities and focus on the movement aspect (ex. Momentum), and it’s good to go.

The Chaos Blades set could be considered the “vanilla” Havoc experience.


If you think it was a necro-post, I can only urge you to look up what that actually means. Because that wasn’t it.

Yep, I know.

I quoted some of the things he/she said and answered the questions. His/her response was this snide comment about me “necro’ing” my own thread.

Okay, sure. Like I said, I don’t know much about DH’s.

While I actually really appreciate the diversity within Havoc itself and would rather an entirely different aesthetic for any other DH DPS spec, and probably only the one other rather than potentially splitting DH three ways (with less build diversity within each), I can certainly see where you’re going with this.

I think that just goes to show how interesting some talents can be. Personally, I’d prefer that more specs feel like they could border becoming almost three different ones, rather than half of all specs being largely so consistent in their aesthetic and/or playflow across any given build, manipulated only in small ways.

  • Think, for instance, of MM with a bankable Wild Quiver [Rapid Fire, but better] mechanic, an Aimed Shot-related mechanic that took some of the best elements of Cata and Legion MM together, and a third, entirely new path, all within a first row that differently but roughly equally synergized with deeper rows.

Sidenote: Back before DH came out, I was hoping for a spec much like we have now for Havoc (but with a bit more fluidity and mobility baseline, such as via oGCD Fel Rushes), any manner of tank spec (I hadn’t gotten into specifics), and finally a Bane spec which was meant to be sort of the demonic trickster/assassin/off-caster big-brain spec. (It involved, among other things, face-stealing and soul manipulations, for self and enemies, through various Torments, if that gives any impressions.)

Actually, that’s still easily achieved. Like, say for example that Havoc becomes baseline Demon Blades with Momentum. They lack Eye Beam, but instead Blade Dance becomes a major source of AoE damage for them (as well as single target via baseline First Blood), along with Fel Rush and associated powers (ex. Unbound Chaos). They remain exclusively in caster form, and Chaos Blades is their “major CD”. Their rotational aesthetic involves lots of dashing around, both physically via Vengeful Retreat and Fel Rush, and visually via Blade Dance.

Demonic becomes a second DPS spec, and the entire notion of that spec is building energy to enter Meta. The spec spends half or more of its time in Meta, similar to Cata-era Demonology (and frankly, similar to Havoc right now), and the rotational dynamic of the spec comes from abilities working differently between the two forms. Meta, instead of being a major CD, is in essence a stance toggle, except that being in Meta drains demonic energy, which is built up while outside of Meta. Eye Beam and Chaos Cleave (specifically, that Chaos Strike has substantial cleave, in addition to other benefit, while in Meta form) are their primary AoE. Their major CD is “The Demon Within”, which activates an empowered meta form that doesn’t drain demonic energy for the duration.

Very different aesthetics. One spec is a super agile skirmisher, zipping around the battlefield like a dervish, while the other is a giant hulking demon massacring everything dumb enough to get within range of their blades (or claw, tbh. I always liked the Vengeance aesthetic where their meta lacks glaives and just mauls the target with claws instead).

Part of why I’d like to see that is because Havoc feels like it’s trying to be 2 different things at once. It has elements of the fast, agile skirmisher, and also elements of the hulking demonic terror, but it feels like it’s compromised and sacrificed on both ends because both have to exist within the same spec.

It’s rather the same effect that existed back between Arms and Fury, or more to the point of this thread, MM and RSV, when the majority of abilities were shared between specs. Arms and Fury didn’t really have that much differentiation in older expansions. Frankly, neither did the rogue specs, and the warlocks specs were basically entirely interchangeable in Vanilla (Incinerate got added in TBC and was the first major step towards separating the specs).

Anyway, that’s a heck of a tangent, since this thread is supposed to be about an RSV concept, not Havoc.

I remember back in MoP when it was an option

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This actually does sound cool; usually threads like these tend to come off as silly or without much cohesion but you do really seem to try to build onto the core of ranged SV. Pretty fun read

Sadly it’s unlikely stuff like this gets implemented but man it would be cool to see in the future!


Appreciate it Dillon!

Yeah, that’s very much the intent. Provide a basis/core that revolves around the old RSV spec, but one that also has additional elements pertaining to it’s intended theme/fantasy. Elements designed to allow the spec to meet the criteria and philosophies of modern game and class-design.

The question is…does the above achieve what is intended?^^

It indeed seems very unlikely. I just hope that we will see it(or something like it) in the game in teh future as, per any criteria really, there’s motivation to implement it into the game.

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Wow, upvote from the Dilly. That’s a biggy, at least to me. I feel like you’ve run a fair amount of MSV in PvP over the last few years, ya?

I’m actually curious on your thoughts on MSV as a whole, it’s theme and playstyle, and whether you like the Legion incarnation or the BFA/SL incarnation better. If I could indulge to derail the thread a bit =P

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Yeah played it a bunch

I like the playstyle a lot, damage rotation was most interesting in legion minus explosive trap being a source of dmg (wildfire bombs are superior fundamentally), but flanking strike/throwing axes/legion mongoose bite were pretty cool for more of the actual melee spec focus

BfA was more fluid overall though, more of a hybrid of melee and ranged with kill commands/serpent sting/bombs/aote

I also liked disengage became baseline so we could have access to posthaste and the bfa honor talents let us have masters call+mending bandage+freedom which was nice

Azerite traits made bfa survival flow well with wilderness survival/primeval intuition and the spec sorta feels bland with their loss in shadowlands. Wildfire infusion doesn’t feel as good anymore because of it

Personally I’ve enjoyed both melee/ranged SV but shadowlands does suck because of the loss of azerite.


It was added in WoD. This is why whenever someone pipes in with “I wish SV had a lone wolf option” I say they should be asking for ranged Survival which had it.

It was actually meant to get a DPS cooldown in WoD but they didn’t go through with it. The idea is that instead of every spec having Rapid Fire they would have a unique spec-defining cooldown for each spec. Bestial Wrath for BM, Rapid Fire for MM, Bear Trap for SV. But Bear Trap was a) problematic in concept (imagine your big CD not going off because the mob moved early) and b) the only one that didn’t already exist so it would have taken a modicum of effort to implement and this was an expansion that largely had Hunters in maintenance mode before the big rework in Legion. Speaking of which, they likely already decided SV would be reworked as a melee spec before WoD even launched.

Another interesting mechanic from WoD: the Archimonde class trinket for SV made Black Arrow have a high chance to reset its cooldown when Arcane Shot and Cobra Shot were used; this allowed for true multidotting and funneling into Explosive Shot procs. Too bad the spec was utterly gutted that tier (+ left without CD burst in a tier that wanted nothing but 2-minute CD burst) so no one got to see it in any competitive scenario.


It’s weird, I feel like I’ve been a bit insulated from that. The major mechanics for MM that came from Azerite traits were the RNG reset on Rapid Fire (which was rolled into a legendary, and wasn’t that impactful anyway), the ~60% focus regen increase to Rapid Fire (which just means casting Steady Shot more), and the massive haste we got from In The Rhythm (further amplified by corruptions). That last one I miss, just because it made the spec feel so fast, like we were always under a Bloodlust effect dialed to 11, but it didn’t really change the rotation, just the pace.

I feel like of all the specs, MM lost relatively little, in terms of gameplay feel, from losing Azerite powers. Probably the only significant rotational feel difference, imo, is no longer having VoP (ya, I know it wasn’t the top option, but my hunter wasn’t really my “main” in BfA, and VoP was a ton of fun), and thus no longer having the like ~50-60s Trueshot build.

Some of my other toons, it’s a world of difference, though. Assassination without Shrouded Suffocation feels pathetic and lame, not to mention being forced back into a poison-focused build rather than the haste-stacking Exsanguinate bleed build we could run during Ny’alotha.

Ya, yes, the Archi trinket. That was the one that gave MM a substantial damage boost the farther from the target they stood, iirc. That trinket made my raid leader hate us hunters, since we were always asking to be exceptions to the “stack on the boss’s butt” raid strategy. That same trinket also gave BM permanent uptime on Bestial Wrath, didn’t it?

Spec-specific trinkets were actually kinda a cool concept, imo. Sorta like a mini single-slot set bonus.


Despite how many players feel(myself included) about what was done, going into Legion, I’ve never thought that there isn’t room for a melee-spec within the class.

It’s just the fact of how it was implemented, how it set a precedent from the devs that it doesn’t matter what the majority of the players want or like. It doesn’t matter what is best for the class as a whole. If the devs want to do something, they’ll do it, and they’ll throw whatever they can against the wall in an attempt to make something stick to justify what they’ve done.

They could’ve added it as a 4th spec from the start and it would’ve been a non-issue.

“Players first” ? Apparently not…

Pretty much yeah.

Despite the numbers, it was an interesting approach and looking back, it would’ve been so easy to develop it even further in the future for the spec. I genuinely thought we would get something similar to that effect(and more) with Legion, based on the changes to come. Until we were told of the…less-than-ideal…approach that was taken instead.


I wish this was the exact opposite of the matter. RSV was so awesome to play back in the day and I truly enjoyed it. Just as much as MSV was much better prior to the changes implemented in SL. I honestly would love to see MSV balanced out and RSV brought in as a 4th class, we deserve it.

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Oh indeed.

And, looking at modern day spec designs and development, there are many ways to approach how you would further build onto what was RSV in the past. I just hope that if they finally decide to bring it back, that they’ll keep with the general theme it used to hold.

The reason I enjoyed playing it so much is because of how it approached the fantasy and the theme of a Munitions Expert and Trapper.

We’re all different ofc. But personally, I want to keep the focus on nature, wilderness, animals, along with the gadgety things like traps and Explosive Shot. Some select shots focusing on Magic is fine as long as it’s not intended to be about us as the Hunters doing the infusions of magic. But rather we just procure the arrows/projectiles to use in combat.

IMO, any approach to a deeper focus on the use of magic should preferably come from an entirely different class. Perhaps like a Hero class such as Dark Rangers or similar.