ok thanks for sharing re: rogues. So what % damage wise has that added, do you know? vs the 30% disparity? Is what I’m getting at, would it be 10%? 15%? 20%?. And I agree, I think this is “minor” knowledge increases such as rogue/affi locks, which are two of the classes ridiculously improving their original dps position at a similar juncture of the game. You could also attribute locks were buffed from 3.0 to 3.3.5 as the lock community was not happy with rotation or damage output at the time from memory and Ghostcrawler communications. Rogues were strong throughout the expansion, but they were not 30-40% stronger! Locks were complete and utter garbage until final patches where they caught up.
I also agree this is not one thing in particular, I think it’s many, it’s just what % is it of each? Without direct data we will never know. But I for one am not buying this “players are way better” argument. Yeah sure 10% better maybe due to optimisations and better addons, but not 40% better!
Honorable mention to Druid tier set bonus and spam casting tranquility.
i get it, it doesn’t feel good being on the end of everyone else. I am also very grateful you understand the terminology of the “royal you”.
the biggest problem i have seen with rets. is that they say they are centered around t10. but when i look back these patch notes i can’t find anything where this suggests this is the case. i can’t find any mysterious nerf from the 3.3.0-3.3.5 that has been claimed for the last 5 months. that is where i get really frustrated with the retribution community. i say this, because i love retribution paladin dps in wrath. literal face roll. whatever your best spell comes up is what you press. its kind of fun that way.
when it comes to hostility i only really get angry when i feel like someone is being disingenuous or arguing in bad faith. i will admit though and this is probably not unique to myself. but what i say in text comes across as incredibly sharp and pointed. i’m just a very direct person in real life. and i can be very sharp with the words i use as well in real life.
you don’t know what a nerf is. or what a bug is. just so you are aware i hate agreeing with red.
red tell him. i do not like agreeing with you. i think most of your arguments are wrong. but, i will give the benefit of this. you know what nerfs.
this clown does not.
but it was. in 3.3.5 locks and rogues just scaled better at this point better than retribution paladins you guys were booty tier.
ah yes, another rose tinted goggle wearing retribution paladin who thinks that things can’t have ever changed. what if locks and rogues were going off incorrect values? what if retribution just scaled like garbage through the entire expansion? and they had very high floor and a very low ceiling? that can’t possibly be the case right?
thats precisely it. the final patch. this is what you guys are from 3.2.2 on. regardless of your tier. with out it this is your dps. you don’t have to like it. other classes just scale better with the 3.3.5 talents as they are. i know its a hard pill to swallow. but its a pill you will have to eat if you want to play.
old news they were probably parroting some loser on the internet, and btw they could have gotten everything wrong in that article. is that not at all possible of a thing to have happened?
Rets may not have received the copious nerfs some claim but they did receive a lot of balancing and changes from their release versions (which was legit OP) and I think that’s were everyone gets stuck. There were nerfs but they were not as heavy handed as some claim. If anything the T10 bonus was a bit of a “here’s some power back we get it” from blizzard.
That is fair for sure, I think we all get that way, the culture of the forums doesn’t help either TBF.
You have the rets crying about being nerfed and needing T10 and on the other hand you have people constant repeating that ret wants to be S tier amazeballzdamage when that overwhelmingly wasn’t what the majority of posting rets wanted. People here read text as if it was an attack by default and it’s a really bad forum culture thing that we should all be better about, I’ve adjusted to be nicer in some ways (my old post history is full of cringe arguments) but still find myself getting heated when It really isn’t necessary sometimes.
i think the 2pc t10 was one of the coolest things for any spec to receive it just so happened ret had a spec that would allow them to munch them DSes and get good value out of it. what i disagree with and this the contention people have stated multiples spreading a lie that they were centered and balanced around this 2pc tier set. i don’t think this is at all helpful nor do i think these people should be allowed to spread that lie. i think we need to tell them to stop it if it pops up. thankfully no one has been saying that for a moment now.
you are not wrong i have said tempered my expectation because the experiences i have had on private servers with a fully bised out agi smourne build. they will be a B+ to A+ tier quality dps depending on the player. which is a fair place to be with a smourne and melee and some times actually having to move. i think people also put too much stock on what websites that really weren’t known for being wow centric had to say. its cool to see your spec be big dick in charge but that is all subjective nonsense. numbers don’t like.
you don’t know what a nerf is. or what a bug is. just so you are aware i hate agreeing with red.
What are you arguing? What the fact you’re ignorant?
red tell him. i do not like agreeing with you. i think most of your arguments are wrong. but, i will give the benefit of this. you know what nerfs.
So as I called you out the other day for being childish with no substance, you clearly do not learn lol. Trying to gang up on people? Really? With no logical argument points nor actual data, nor information from any sources to add substance to the conversation. Just a “fight” response and childishness?
this clown does not.
And namecalling to boot…
but it was. in 3.3.5 locks and rogues just scaled better at this point better than retribution paladins you guys were booty tier.
Look at the Engadget ICC 25 man “average” and “top” dps numbers, you are wrong! They were not 30-40% ahead. Now go and do your homework around this, and stop talking from a “I’m right you’re wrong because I think so” arguing point! Prove your argument points!
We were B+ to A Tier dps, and if you parse 90-99 like me, you were the top dps in top 5 guilds vs any natural pure dps like rogues and mages! I played in a literal top oceanic guild in original Wrath called Ka Pai. We were clearing Heroic ICC straight away!
ah yes, another rose tinted goggle wearing retribution paladin who thinks that things can’t have ever changed. what if locks and rogues were going off incorrect values? what if retribution just scaled like garbage through the entire expansion? and they had very high floor and a very low ceiling? that can’t possibly be the case right?
Prove what you say is true then! I am aware of rogue gameplay and affi lock gameplay that has been slightly revised for what the ACTUAL players themselves say is around a 10% gain probably in dps. Where does the other 30% disparity come from? Explain it to me?! You just waffle on all day without any evidence or constructive tangible data. There are classes all over the shop in terms of damage now vs back then, this could be attributed to the last Patch 3.3.5 + gear available from earlier patches, it does not explain the insane disparities, that you anecdotally explain away with your sheer arrogance!
thats precisely it. the final patch. this is what you guys are from 3.2.2 on. regardless of your tier. with out it this is your dps. you don’t have to like it. other classes just scale better with the 3.3.5 talents as they are. i know its a hard pill to swallow. but its a pill you will have to eat if you want to play.
I don’t have to swallow anything. Particularly when a spoilt little argumentative brat says so like you! This is “Wrath of the Lich King Classic” meant to be emulating the game as it was at that time! Are you wanting to deviate from that? It wouldn’t be called that if it wasn’t meant to be that within reason. What is occuring is beyond the “within reason” part that everyone accepts!
old news they were probably parroting some loser on the internet, and btw they could have gotten everything wrong in that article. is that not at all possible of a thing to have happened?
You haven’t even looked at the article, because if you had, you’d know that it was 30,000 parses from World of Logs! So you literally prove, you’re an immature argumentative little child being abusive on forums! And have no idea what you are talking about, but love to listen to the sound of your own voice…
I embrace ACTUAL tangible evidence from you, but you don’t offer that, you offer childishness and abuse instead, which garners ZERO respect!
Ret was never “S” tier at all, ever period, bar the prepatch breifly! When we had Divine Storm as Holy Damage, and before Seal of Blood/Martyr coefficients were nerfed. We were B+ to A tier approximately, and using todays metrics, if you were a very good Ret, parsing at say 85-99, you would be the number 1 dps in most guilds, even top notch Heroic ICC clearing guilds, Ret was in the top few dps because of the cleave! Some of this damage wont be recorded on Warcraft logs these days in terms of “add damage”. Point being we were never last in terms of damage done and dps
Does it matter? “Game is in 3.3” many other specs like Hpal and Ppal were buffed in 3.3. Many dps specs were buffed in 3.3
Either make balance changes or don’t. None of this inconsistent goals and expectations changes, with terrible see through made up reasonings that no one is buying.
A bug fix can result in a nerf. In this case the bug was gary doing far more damage than back in og wotlk. The fix was nerfing how it scaled with haste to put it closer (but still stronger than) what it was in og wotlk.
I can see in 99 parses on all bosses (for today) on classic warcraft logs, Ret is just behind Fury warriors in terms of DPS. So really, right where they should be.
you don’t know what a nerf is vs a bug. you sir are the ignorant one.
you did? i don’t remember it but you’re being a typical ret who thinks they should be atop the charts when your class performs like hot garbage. sorry, no dice. you can feel craft your way to the top all you want. but ret was objectively a poor class in wrath until icc. the fact ret was beating them shows how terribly tuned these classes were or how poorly they scaled.
already have. we’re living 3.3.5 in the live. but affliction locks were never this good argument does fly when we they have 3.3.5 patches. sorry it doesn’t carry weight anymore we aren’t in patch 3.1 or 3.2 we are in patch 3.3.5. its just labeled 3.4.1.whatever.
but you have you. and are. because affliction locks are atop the the charts. and rets are not. you’re eating that pill every day. and you’ll continue to eat it.
bruh. i’ve looked at the article its trash. where are those logs? oh right they don’t exist unless you can prove it. with a link it doesn’t matter. 30k is nonsense maybe on a busted scaling private server. pulease.
i have. i’ve looked every objective patch there has been for wrath. nothing has changed you the way you think it has from then to now. you need to live with the reality ret just sucked in 3.3.5 thats all there is to it. we are literally in patch 3.3.5 right now. tell me why ret isn’t good? it ain’t your seal of blood thats causing you to be crap its the fact they were just crap in that patch. no nerfs no redesigns.
naw fam i said you know what a nerf is and a bug fix is. and the idiot paladin didn’t.
In this case gary got nerfed as the method blizzard “fixed” the bug of the pet ai for gary being much more effective compared to og wotlk because of the new engion and other back end changes they likely had to make to make wotlk run on the new engine.
Even hunter pets are a bit more responsive and smart with ability use than back then which is part of why bm isnt as far behind sv and mm as it was in og 3.3.5. It is still considerably behind, but probably about 10-15% closer to mm and sv than it was back then.
Redheadchild is just a trol, will not post on his classic main and crying constantly in majority of his forums posts. No need to argue with him.
You havent asked me to.
You have attacked me for who i use to post on the forums but you have never asked me to post on my main, which i have done multiple times for those who ask. Have you never noticed how drink blink attacks my logs? Its because i was asked to show my main and i did. Being polite goes a long way. Its why i dont have issues getting groups.
Why can’t I flag this post for trolling? Cause that is what it is right Blizz? Right?
Are they bad actors we got buffs was it an act or was our dps not total trash.
yes there are bad actors, regardless whether your spec was justified to be buffed or not is not the question. there are some that lie through their teeth about how bad your guys spec is and how it was changed to fit a specific patch. which is absolutely a lie. and they should be called out. when those people are out lying about htat they should be immediately shut down.
oh and just because your spec is bad during the first few phases doesn’t mean you should get buffed. please see fury, retribution, Marksman, and combat.
Youve deep dived 13 year old patch notes?itd be really something if we could convince blizzard the games creator that were bad when were not.ive seen some of the changes they nerfed the heck out of our cdmg scaling.