Unpopular Opinion time

I’ve never used PvP combat as a resolution for IC conflicts, myself. I prefer roll systems or just trust RP, and find both of them to be fun. I use roll combat a little bit more and imo at least, it’s not a bad system! Just depends on what kind of roll dice system you use, I suppose.

Generally my characters just don’t get into fights unless for RP events. And if they do, it’s usually for a fun duel! Most recent one that was ‘PvP’ was to help calm down an Orc that was getting very threatening to a Mechagnome my Goblin Warrior befriended. So she challenged the Orc to a duel and though it was a hard fight, she eventually emerged victorious!

Her and that Orc are now good friends :slight_smile:

Just a note here on how different this generation is from mine in regard to RP: back in the “golden era” of WoW RP, one did NOT RP a class outside what was given in game or you immediately got side-eyed. People stuck by mechanics and lore pretty hardcore. I admit, it’s my preferred method. ERP was also not something you did/admit to, because that was frowned upon and likely to get you kicked out of a guild. Darknest was that place only “weirdos” hung out in. Certainly that’s a lot different now (and I personally don’t care what people want to RP in private, but I do admit I wish RP weren’t so relationship-centric now).

“Out there” concepts were carefully, carefully scrutinized to make sure they still adhered to lore. I had two “out there” concepts, but was part of a prominent and well-respected RP guild, and had proven I wasn’t going to be rocking the boat too much with said concepts. I still have one of those characters-- a Nelf satyr who was changed by force and fought the corruption enough to keep control of his freewill (he used illusions and disguises to hide himself in those days, but couldn’t go around potentially hostile warlocks and had limits on how often he could be in the city during certain times). He’s now a DH character, but I don’t really RP much these days so he’s just sitting there at 120 waiting for SL to drop (and ironically, it’s far harder to find him an RP guild now than 15 years ago when the RP generation was a -lot- stricter on those concepts).

Anyway, some things I miss – like faster, easier systems for RP battles, and more freeform RP events, and more focus on character storylines vs. big events and casual walk-up stuff (which I just can’t get into and am not good at-- maybe because I tend not to speak to strangers IRL randomly so I’m reluctant to do it in game without a specific purpose)-- but other stuff like lax lore guidelines and less scrutinizing a person’s reputation (servers were a lot smaller back then and everyone knew everyone), resulting in a lot of blacklisting for fairly petty reasons-- is good riddance IMHO.

Anyway…yeah.

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Going to bigpost here after nap.

you’re cool and smart

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I’m not sure I understand the logic behind this: there are many lore characters that don’t cleanly fit into the class restrictions the game imposes

Yes, but we weren’t playing lore characters/powerful NPCs. Recall: in those days, your character wasn’t THE CHOSEN HERO LEADER OF THEIR CLASS!! or anything. They were literally just “you there, random adventurer…help me slay some boars for their tusks”. It stems from the old tabletop systems where you did NOT make up your own class-- you had a set group of classes to pick from.

Basically, if it wasn’t an option for you in the character creation screen, you were SOL. Your character could have side talents or whatever, sure-- maybe they were a priest that was also a medical journalist or a herbalist-- but everything was very “by the game”. If the game didn’t offer you the choice, you were very discouraged from selecting that choice. It applied to crafting as well. You absolutely were not going to have a priest character with herbalism and alchemy professions be able to, for instance, RP a scenario where they enchant an item. Unless you had picked that as your profession-- nope, it was going to be REAL iffy with a majority of RPers.

I mean, even in Cata that was still in place to some degree. I wanted to roll a goblin warlock who was a pirate-- but was strongly discouraged (and this was ON WRA btw, after I had transferred) because “it makes no sense to have a warlock that’s a pirate-- pirate isn’t a class in this game”.

Times change, but admittedly I do get confused with all these classes–some NPC classes, some straight-up just “I made this concept myself”, because I’ve no idea what half of them are. That’s a “me” problem because I’m not particularly interested in reading the back lore of every race ever to see where these classes might fit into lore, but :stuck_out_tongue: I like to keep it simple. When I roll a hunter, he’s a ranger or a hunter who might work as a scout/recon or is a survival or animal specialist. When I roll a warrior, he’s a warrior who might be a weapons-specialist or a merc or a soldier. It makes it easier for me because I’m old, and old school RPers prefer to be creative within the limits of hard lore/ the book I guess. YMMV. But that’s why we did it the way we did.

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Thats a good point: while most folks know better than to rp being the “chosen one” in-character, the game is the window through which we view the story. So on some level the type of storytelling the game indulges in will always inform our attitudes to rp storytelling.

The game has changed, and thus so must we.

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Agreed, and I’m glad to hear this sentiment expressed. While I have been impressed by the work done relating to the systems of certain guilds, the system ends up taking center stage.

I hope to run more events like this myself on a smaller scale. Good luck with your endeavors.

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I’m going to continue to roll characters that are the specific class I pick at the select screen. It’s what I prefer and feel comfortable with. Again: YMMV and you do you :slight_smile: to each their own and all that. But I’m too old to do much changing in my RP style at this point.

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well yeah, there was never any question of whether its ok to roll the classes the game gave you: that has always been and always will be fine and valid.

But it sounds like back in the day you wanted to be a pirate or a satyr and you got some pushback for that, and you were either forbidden from doing so or required to prove yourself by someone else’s standards before you were allowed to do so.

What has changed is that everyone is now free to be a pirate or satyr or whatever, and everyone else is free to decide to choose whether to accept that and interact with them!

We are now even more

than ever before, I think!

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Difference in opinion I’d suggest. A Blood Elven Spellbreaker is not an “Out there” concept, in my opinion. They’ve existed in lore since Warcraft 3 and have a significant role to play in society - a class simply doesn’t exist for them. Blood Elven Farstriders also canonically use nature magic - something that hunters don’t necessarily do by default. It’s one of those things… the playable “class” is secondary to the lore, in many ways. There’s a lot of differences in lore, say, between a Zandalari Paladin and a Human Paladin. The way they get their powers is totally different. And yet they are both canonically Paladins, at least of a kind. Gets a bit messy, which is why lore classes seem cooler to me than the baseline generic ones. But each to their own!

Irrespective of the gameplay/actual playthrough experience of the newer expansion, nobody I’ve ever met RPs as the head of a Class Hall, or Commander of a Garrison, or champion of their faction or whatever. In RP everyone’s just regular people in WoW.

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The pirate warlock thing didn’t fly because pirate wasn’t a class you could choose. The satyr thing worked BETTER on my golden era RP server than WRA, surprisingly-- but he was still his class first, and the in-disguise-satyr second. Now that there’s a class that actually SUPPORTS a satyr-ish type character (DH) :stuck_out_tongue: I’ve never had much luck finding a good fit RP guild or RP friends with him. The DH thing gets more pushback than the satyr concept ever did. Which is kind of hilarious.
Anyway… oh well.

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thats very surprising to hear!

So choosing a special, non-game-approved race was ok, but a non-game approved class was forbidden?

I never played Warcraft 3 and Blood Elves are way down there on the list of “races I’m interested enough in to read about”, so…yeah, again, as I stated – it’s a “me” problem in some aspects because if I’m not interested in it, I don’t know much about it. As for paladins and such in various races-- yeah, I get it-- but in old school WoW RP, we didn’t have troll paladins or night elf mages or anything like that. The lore was pretty established through the questing for what your race was and what your class was. No one had to think about “hrm, how does a human paladin differ from a troll paladin” because …it wasn’t a thing. Paladins were paladins no matter the race. Mages were mages, etc.

@ Miryala: The non-game approved class happened on WRA in its early days, mind you. On Cenarion Circle-- my original server-- I had a troll hunter who had spent some time at sea and was a little piratey, and no one minded that so much because I wasn’t actually saying “this guy’s a pirate!”. He was a troll with a seafaring past who was a hunter-- his class was hunter, his race was troll. Those were allowed.

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For better or for worse it’s a feature of modern wow though. There’s a lot of diversity even within a single class, that it tends to be identified differently. (Using Paladins as an example, Draenei have Vindicators, Blood Elves have Blood Knights, Zandalari have Prelates, Tauren have Sunwalkers and so on) The simplicity of a class in lore is much less prevalent today.

Might be still much the same as you remember it on classic rp realms though - could be worth a look!

So please correct me if I’m wrong here but if I understand this right, he was a pirate… you just didn’t call “pirate” his “class”?

Did you use any skills or abilities in your roleplay that reflected his pirate background?

My troll hunter had a seafaring past but no, he didn’t use any piratey-themed abilities. He had a slight accent, liked to get drunk, and wore an eyepatch/was blind in one eye. But for all practical purposes and RP purposes, his class was hunter.

My goblin warlock I wanted to RP (did eventually with a small group of friends outside the game so as not to create controversy) WAS definitely a full-on pirate. His alias (original name long forgotten) was “Carronade”, (a term for canon). But that was a no-go in game because pirate wasn’t a class, so having a warlock with the cutlass skills and seafaring ability and thievery ability of a pirate was a roadblock for in-game RP in 2010. The idea behind him was he was a down-on-his luck pirate captain who made some deals with demons to basically bestow him with a new crew (disguised imps and succubi and such) and a new ship, and he had warlock-y powers and all, but had basically sold his soul to do these things. I was on a pretty big POTC kick at the time so :stuck_out_tongue: yeah, it was cheesy AF and my head canon voice actor for him was definitely Geoffrey Rush (did I spell that right?) aka Captain Barbossa.

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damn, a cursed pirate who sold his soul for a crew? Thats amazing!

it is even closer to the warlock fantasy than most: sacrificing your soul not just for power but for your personal heart’s desire… damn, thats just a really cool idea, and fits rather snugly into the lore, in my opinion! Imps have those contracts, after all!

Do you think you could have played him if instead of being a warlock he was like, a rogue weilding a cutlass, who’s backstory was that he sold his soul to get a crew? And maybe have one of those toys/pets that let you summon a demon, or even have your friends play as demons disguised as his new crewmates?

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Likely not, because that would have made him too warlock-y and people would have taken issue with that. One of the friends I RP’ed him with out-of-game was a naval captain goblin mage, which was also “too out there” at the time.

Really I can’t entirely disagree that concepts like that work better on forum or in private RP than trying to smash them into a game where the mechanics just aren’t there to support said idea. I mean, it’s not like I could ever actually HAVE a ship or a crew or cursed ship anything, so I kinda get why people were all “nope” about that.

Your armor is stupid-looking and whoever designed the Kaldorei-themed sets from Darkshore needed to be slapped for this gaudy and shoddy work. A race who resonates with nature wears equipment that makes them spottable at fifty miles away and looks like some 12 year old chuunibyou had a stroke while overdosing on ritalin.

An unpopular opinion?

As much as I want the Horde to make repatriations to the Kaldorei (and a lesser extent, the Worgen), I know at best if we do manage to get that, its going to be a throw-away line about us sending supplies to aid with the rebuilding and a line of Peons tossing crates into a kodo-drawn wagon, and the Alliance version will be them having a bunch of Peasants offloading those crates out of the back of a horse-drawn wagon.

Couple of things I have been sitting on that are unpopular.


Peons are Special Needs People

Something I spotted while grinding Draenor content for moggery and leveling is that we never see any of the stereotypical “okey-dokey” Peons in the Iron Horde. Even the most basic scrub-tier carry-my-stuff Mag’har is just a ‘normal’ Orc.

Then we get to our Horde, and Peons exist. They’re always male, and they’re … not the brightest sorts, but able to take massive amounts of punishment, prodigiously strong and generally speaking, kind and gentle souls who just want to help.

Now, that was something that took a few years before the idea percolated and suddenly I was sitting there wracked with guilt about every ‘booterang’ joke I’d told, but it also made a kind of sense about why Peons existed in the Horde as a labour-caste, because they wouldn’t be able to fulfill the coming-of-age rites of the hunt, they would be relatively useless in battle, and Orcs, despite the multitude of “YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG” stuff I can hang on their spike-covered hats, care for their people, especially under Thrall’s guidance and that was something not even the successive Warchiefs could stamp out, who do not abandon their own.

Every Peon is somebody’s son, somebody’s brother, somebody’s nephew. They might not have a glorious future within the Horde, but they will have a future, and according to the Orcish view on things, they will have earned their place within the Horde through honest work and honest labour, and be valued for that service.

It is also important to remember that Orcs have a racial that reduces their time stunned, referencing their sturdy skeletal structure and bone-density, so what to a Human might be a horrific amount of abuse is, to an Orc, no worse than a clip over the ear.

That said I also don’t believe all Horde Overseers in charge of the Peons are as outright abusive as the bastard we meet in the Den, and we see in the Vulpera scenario that Peons have their champions and respect within the majority of the Horde, just not the ‘Twue Whauwioaws’ amongst the Orcs, who, let’s be honest?

Kind of douches to begin with?

Then we get to the ‘why’ of the Peon, and it is important to remember that Peons did not exist until the Original Horde started using Fel Magic to artificially age-up their troops by draining their life force in a very specific way, which made them age faster, turning a five-year old into a fifteen-year old and making them physically capable enough to be able to fight side-by-side with the ‘adults’, which had the side benefit of also giving the Warlocks a lovely package of vitality to use to either extend the lives of the Shadow Council or to convert into more Fel for their own use, and is part of the reason that people like Grom lived as long as they did.

yes, Mr True Warrior there got where he did by taking in the life-force of his own people’s children. Meditate on that.

It could be that some quirk in the Orcish blood made manifest, but this artificial aging process seems to have made ‘Peon-hood’ a trait that can just randomly pop up in anyone descended from these artificially-aged Grunts.

A more disturbing trend could be that the Shadow Council kept ‘broods’ of female Orcs that they would keep churning babies out from, the aged-up boys get sent to the frontlines, the aged-up girls get kept with their mothers to increase production of troops, and I really really hope this was not true, but I also remember Garona exists because of the Shadow Council’s ‘breeding programs’, and Blackhand and Gul’dan ran the Shadow Council, and these were two monsters who desperately needed to be beaten into bloody smears with their own limbs.

Moving on, it seems that every family is at risk of giving rise to a Peon amongst their male children, and I think that’s something that a lot of proud Orcs fear, which results in one of two outcomes.

The first is that the parents reject the child and he is raised communally by the Horde and brought up to see pride and self-accomplishment in that service, that his care-takers and the Horde itself are their family.

The second is that the parents accept their child and attempt to raise him as normal, but the child is a Peon, with all the frustrations and difficulties therein, and the Peon has both his family and the Horde to fall back on for support and guidance.

I also imagine all Peons see each other as brothers, and while a Peon without a family might be sad and lonely at times, he has his ‘brothers’ to commiserate with, and I imagine the families of other Peons are probably the type to grab a lonely Peon and bring them into the fold during public holidays and celebrations. I don’t know why, but the imagine of a Orc family coming together for Winter’s Veil and there’s Gurthurk the Destroyer and Vek’kana the Bloodied hugging their big brother Dunk the Peon and his ‘brother’ Peons, and the family’s kids crawling all over their uncle and ‘uncles’, while the other adults look on and smile because of how happy the Peons are just to be accepted and valued as family and …

On to something less likely to crush my heart …


Zo’val the Jailor has a tragic backstory.

Anyone else remember the giant stone statues in Legion-era Druid and Emerald Dream/Nightmare content? The big, smooth ones?

Anyone else notice a resemblance between the leaked image of the Jailor and these guys, once you squint and imagine what Zo’val looks like without his armor on?

(don’t judge me!)

An unpopular opinion is that Zo’val is not some uber-mensch threat to all life, but the last of his kind shackled into the Maw for refusing to obey the Titans when they set about re-Ordering everything, and those giant statues we find? Dead members of Zo’val’s race who were cast out of the Shadowlands during that cataclysmic battle for control over the destiny of Death and the creation of the Covenants and the Arbiter, and used by the Titans when they were re-Ordering Azeroth and building the Emerald Dream to bind the Dream to Ardenweld through these petrified corpses to act as ‘anchors’ for connections between the two realms to solidify, especially since we only see these statues in an area directly linked to both the ‘heart’ of the Emerald Dream and the Rift of Almn.

Zo’val is a First One, and he’s after Azeroth’s soul because with all the anima he can harvest from a nascent Titan’s World-Soul, he could possibly revive and restore all of his lost people and set about righting the ‘wrongs’ done to the Shadowlands.

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