Because again, we pre-paid in the form of being made your victims in the faction war. I appreciate that you don’t like having been forced into that situation, and I appreciate that you don’t like having your bench of memorable characters depleted - both are problems that also can and should be dealt with, but in our specific case? We already suffered too - just in a different way.
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I really don’t think “We had terrible storytelling, therefore you should to!” is a productive line of discussion.
I’ll be annoyed if Blizzard gives Nelves something that Forsaken had to lose, but not to the extent that I’d demand they lose it too.
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Is it productive? No, probably not, I can admit that.
That said, the prospect of an all-powerful Tyrande looming over the Horde is a story beat I strenuously object to. The comments about raidbossing are born of salt, but I really don’t think giving the Alliance an even-more-god-tier character who threatens to tear the Horde a new hole sideways if they breathe funny is very productive either.
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I think that’s probably a good argument for contextualizing, defining, or depowering the Night Warrior in some way if we get things into the faction rivalry. I would agree with you if you’re arguing that the Horde shouldn’t put up with a sword of Damocles that is only sparing them for plot reasons. This is why I like the idea of this kind of arc ending with a stalemate where neither side can progress, at what appear to me as Ashenvale’s natural borders.
It should appear that through the Horde’s ability, Tyrande cannot progress further than that. Again, I am not interested in making the other side feel inferior, but they should fear and respect their opponents.
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Fates worse than death.
Becoming a raid boss and going out with dignity or getting Saurfanged.
Tyrande will get Saurfanged along with Sylvanas and none of this will matter.
Bow down to your infallible overlord Anduin Emperor of Azeroth and cry.
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So by this logic, how do you think the Horde players of nearly all races feel? We were pretty much told the sum of all of our parts, despite all we’ve accomplished, could be punked by the neighborhood watch. Our leaders we should be proud of? Chumps, flip-flops, and relative weaklings.
Why do Night Elves get to feel better while we don’t? I can’t say I agree with Tyrande being allowed to run rampant while we remain in the mud flailing helplessly against our Night Elf and Alliance overlords.
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Told is the operative word here. I know where the “chumps” argument comes from - it comes largely from an analysis of the text versus what’s been plastered up on the screen, with Dazar’alor and to a lesser extent Lordaeron being the big exceptions. Apart from that, the Horde comes across as looking powerful, and this was strictly because they were slotted into the “bad guy” role for BFA - you see a pretty stark demonstration of that with the War of the Thorns.
Ideally, in terms of power balance, the factions should be just that - balanced - which strikes me as a defect of this proposal because it doesn’t import elements that I included in my PVP post-shadowlands post. As I stated before, I believe that the Horde through its own efforts should be able to prevent the Night Elves from spilling into their own territories. They should appear capable. They just shouldn’t be the only ones - this being true both in a strict text sense and the sense of what’s presented, and understood by general audiences.
Hope that helps to clarify what I mean.
Edit: I really should link that post - because I’m finding that it’s more and more important to understanding what I’m going for, as opposed to what I think people think I’m going for. Writing a PVP-Narrative, Post Shadowlands - #23 by Kyalin-cenarion-circle
It is important to note that all moments of appearing powerful (Both in text and game) came at the expense of one singular group. Civilians. Teldrassil and Brennadam are the perfect examples. The Horde appear to be a threat because they’re mowing down helpless people who were hit by sneak attacks. Against an actual army or even a well organized militia? They crumple with the exception of the rally after Rastakhan’s death in which they were still stalled long enough by a single Alliance character to make happen. The Horde were portrayed as hilariously ineffective throughout BFA, which only retroactively makes sense when we learn the whole point was to rack up the overall body count.
As for power-balance: Yes. Yes, they should be. But they aren’t and haven’t been for a long time now. Malfurion, Jaina, and Tyrande are all capable of clapping entire armies with a wave of their hand with it looking like the Totally-Not-A-DK Anduin joining their ranks soon. What do the Trolls have? The Forsaken? Orcs? Tauren? They have nothing but characters who are stronger than the average soldier, but still less than the Alliance D-listers. Remember when Rokhan was beaten TWICE by Blademaster Telaamon in a single scenario? I do.
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So, when I address civilians in context to the War of the Thorns, I again have to address how it was presented versus the facts that are conveyed in the text. I’ve stated this in other threads, but visual information supercedes text in a fashion where it’s not even close. A picture is worth a thousand words. One minute of video is worth 1.8 million. People remember 20% of text, and around 80% of what they see. This drives what is remembered, what has impact, and what general audiences see.
… and, those caveats about the War of the Thorns being fought by a skeleton crew? All of those proud moments in Ashenvale where they nearly beat back the Horde offensive? All of that is in text. Worse still, most of it is in transmedia narrative, which is even less accessible, and more difficult to regard as a satisfying answer to what looks like the Horde wiping an entire nation, and its military off of the map. Does the strict lore agree with that depiction? No, but the strict lore wasn’t depicted, creating the imbalance that I’m seeking to remedy.
Regarding the Alliance’s superpowerful characters, I agree with you if you’re arguing that they shouldn’t be this powerful, or at least that they shouldn’t be incomprehensible. I don’t like the idea of Jaina being able to pull out an IWIN button at say, Undercity, when things aren’t going the Alliance’s way, and one of my larger complaints with the Night Warrior is - apart from it largely feeling unnecessary - it’s undefined in terms of its magnitude. We don’t know what Tyrande can do, or can’t do.
However, the arc that I’m discussing doesn’t require her keeping that power, or that power being established as so powerful that it breaks the meta, so to speak. The arc that I’m discussing in the context of this post is entirely about how Tyrande is being framed - as being terrifying, as a villain might be - but in service to the role of a protagonist.
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I’ll take Tyrande as a Raid Boss. I really WANT those Warglaives, she DOES NOT deserve them.
Even if we beat her down to a pulp, we all know an Alliance Faction Leader will not die by Raid means whatsoever.
We will kill the Night Warrior aspect, or whatever that crap passes for, and she will go back to the untouchable, ungrateful, unreliable, idiot, that she has always been.
She has already been Saurfanged, rather instead she went total edgelord like her fanbase has been screaming for for years, while Saurfang got all grief-stricken and mopey.
Maybe they should have switched roles?
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So the cinematic where the Horde rolls up with all the bells and whistles in Brennadam with the sole purpose of murdering a town of farmers? Which the Alliance player immediately punks? It also doesn’t change that the text supersedes the visuals of the game. The skeleton crew did so well and was so determined that they practically de-canonized the Horde-side part of the Astranaar campaign. My visuals that I witnessed and took part in in the game didn’t even happen because of the text, yet I am forced to still acknowledge it.
But you’re arguing that Tyrande should keep her super power-up, which is already above Jaina according to some NPCs like Darion. It’s already above anything the Horde has as we’ve seen by her work in the Maw and Nathanos making a special note that she has grown more powerful before she killed him. So does her power tone down or what? Does Night Warrior just become a fancy title?
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Regarding your first point, the text does not supercede the visuals of the game - not in terms of what general audiences believe, and what survives the process of cognitive dissonance. It’s the opposite for human beings generally.
Regarding your second, you could fit a tone down of the on-paper power while retaining the framing. The point here is entirely to establish that she is threatening, and feared by her opponents, while not making it so severe that the Horde as a faction feels that she could end them on a whim.
In short, it’s a balancing act.
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I would bet 1000 quatloos that Tyrande does not become a raid boss in Shadowlands.
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So, my big question would be how you would balance this for the Horde players? Visually in game I have followed a literal trail of bodies across half the Maw to find Tyrande. I know she can obliterate large swaths of an army that was noted to rival the Legion in-game, as numerous characters draw the comparison in the final act of the opening Shadowlands scenario.
What is preventing her from just going on a jog into Azshara and leaving that same trail of corpses? Because from everything the game has shown us, it ain’t the Horde or it’s leaders.
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There are a number of possibilities, and I can’t claim to know them all. One idea is that she might have to “cash in some of her chips” to accomplish some feat during Shadowlands, before returning to Azeroth, resulting in her losing some or all of the abilities that she gained with the Night Warrior - but still being framed as being something to be feared.
So she becomes the Night Warrior in title only? That seems…silly. But fine. But what does the Horde get to balance her continued threat? Does Thrall regain the power of the World Shaman? Does Loa’jin empower Rokhan and turn him into the powerhouse Shadow hunters are supposed to be? Does Baine figure out that it’s okay to smash people in defense of homeland and follow the path of the Spiritwalker?
You NEED to give the Horde something if you want this balancing act to work. At this point they exist on Tyrande and the Kal’dorei’s good graces, which we both agree is silly.
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You NEED to give the Horde something if you want this balancing act to work.
That’s fair - and I would kick that back to you - what would you like to see in the characters on your side that would balance this out? Something of a defending force, something to counteract her?
I don’t want to speak for you, because I’m not as well versed in what Horde fans want versus what Night Elf fans want, but that is a valid question to ask - and I don’t want to presume to speak outside of my area of investment.
What I want is characters that can both represent the core themes of my races and be capable of standing up to their Alliance counterparts. I have neither.
I’m a Troll fan before everything, a group who has arguably been shafted harder than the Night Elves. So I’ll use Rokhan as my example. I want Rokhan to be what Vol’jin was supposed to be. The greatest Shadow hunter on Azeroth, empowered by multiple Loa to be capable of amazing things in the name of his people. If Tyrande invokes Elune, he invokes Bwonsamdi/Loa’jin to match her. We’ve seen Bwonsamdi match most of Elune’s shown powers on screen (Including messing with the moon), so I don’t think elevating him to that level after Shadowlands is out of reach.
But realistically, I’ll settle for Thrall getting over his emotional roller coaster and becoming the World Shaman again. Can’t cross the Southfury River if the river itself rises to stop you after all. Tyrande isn’t Achilles after all. Not yet anyways.
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I think that’s a good call with Rokhan - and I agree with you that the trolls have been screwed over hard. Again, I think that the area where the unstoppable force meets the immovable object should be on Ashenvale’s natural border, but provided that we agree on that, I like the idea.
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If there were words capable of expressing my annoyance with how the Darkspear cast has been neglected and mistreated I would have exhausted myself screaming them long ago. Bwonsamdi is the only good content the Trolls have seen in a long time. Thank the Loa for his VA, the only thing that saved him from the villain bat.
As for the river border, I admit my personal preference would be for the Falfarren river to be the place of stalemate to allow the Horde to keep their Ashenvale holdings that matter (Splintertree and the Warsong camp) in order to give the Horde some breathing room and allowing the NE to have all the territory they need to move about their lands unimpeded while simultaneously leaving potential Warsong/Silverwing shenanigans open for future stories. Always thought the Southfury was a strange border since it’s literally Orgrimmar’s backyard, but it’s one I’d accept if push came to shove.
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