I would really like to see Tyrande fight Sylvanas
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It would be a damn shame if they wasted a rare opportunity like this. Morally dark grey Avenging retribution vs dark knight pacifism can be a powerful plot. Just take a look at Batman Under the Red Hood of Jason Todd’s Ultimatum. (Spoilers ahead, it’s one of the closing scenes but one of the best crowning moments of the film!)
[Spoilers: A Wrathful Jason Todd, after witnessing countless of his friends and people around him die to the psycotic prince, swears to end his life after being brought back with a price to pay. Should a murderer, always get to walk free? Much loved by fans by it’s darker twist and take on Batman, it does one of it’s best jobs showing the integrity of batman, but also the inherent conflict of such a world.]
Baine opened up gas on his own people. He owns that.
Liandrin did some bad things against paladin code. Its not even BE paladin light is different from human paladin light. She owns that.
Its not the just the tree. its everything…And the horde is getting a pass for it.
And the night elves are supposed to go…oh its okay.
I didn’t want that tree anyway.
My baby sister died in the fire. But thinking on it she would have died eventually so it got that over with anyway so that’s okay too…
Arthas gave orders. Necromancers raised the ghouls, Scholomance scholars manned the corpse carts, liches froze the corpses of the dying to be reanimated later. Plenty of Alliance members willfully joined the Scourge.
Oh really? Because the Ghostlands and Plaguelands are full of Undead loyal to the Scourge long after the Lich King’s direct control receded from their minds. I also happen to recall mention of fallen Paladins that willfully followed Arthas in WCIII item descriptions.
Do you want to retaliate against the Horde for killing your people and wiping out our capital? If so, you are crazy. Varian was called crazy, the Alliance was called crazy, Jaina was called crazy after Theramoore and now it is Tyrande. Horde is like the the protected class, they can do no wrong.
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Forgive me if I’m wrong because my recollection of the exact events in WCIII is a little hazy, but as I recall he did that after they disobeyed his orders and turned their back on him at Stratholm.
You’re still in denial. Arthas was the heir to Lordaeron and leadership of the Alliance. Arthas killed his father, inherited his father’s position, and then attacked Quel’thalas. These are absolute facts.
People don’t stop being heirs to titles because you say so. Since the Scourge was composed of the fallen, risen, or otherwise necromantically adept inhabitants of Lordaeron yes: The Scourge was absolutely a part of Lordaeron just like the Forsaken are a part of Lordaeron. They are the Lordaeronian people. Whether they willfully served as his army is meaningless. Conscription still makes you a soldier, even if the form of conscription is undeath.
So , in your mind, what did Arthas fight for? Remind me again why he went to Northrend. Remind me again why he was seeking the power of the Lich King. Or do you think he was just a big bad man that did bad things because he was bad?
His army was composed of these people and Scholomance Necromancers were all members of the Alliance of Lordaeron.
Oh my, that’s an unpacker. As a general rule, when people like you Godwin a thread, I feel like the argument is done. Congrats on the Godwin.
That said, you might find interesting the Milgram Experiments, which in itself was a rather controversial study designed to figure out why German soldiers did what they did. To quote Milgram himself, "The legal and philosophic aspects of obedience are of enormous importance, but they say very little about how most people behave in concrete situations. I set up a simple experiment at Yale University to test how much pain an ordinary citizen would inflict on another person simply because he was ordered to by an experimental scientist. Stark authority was pitted against the subjects’ [participants’] strongest moral imperatives against hurting others, and, with the subjects’ [participants’] ears ringing with the screams of the victims, authority won more often than not. The extreme willingness of adults to go to almost any lengths on the command of an authority constitutes the chief finding of the study and the fact most urgently demanding explanation.
Ordinary people, simply doing their jobs, and without any particular hostility on their part, can become agents in a terrible destructive process. Moreover, even when the destructive effects of their work become patently clear, and they are asked to carry out actions incompatible with fundamental standards of morality, relatively few people have the resources needed to resist authority."
I know I have found that in my own life, few people do indeed resist authority even when you ask them to do something against their own moral code. From a scientific standpoint, whatever in the brain causes that feels like a weak link to me.
You should read some of my other posts. I’m actually probably one of the biggest Alliance sympathizers you’ll find among the Horde. I’m not a fan how Blizz has written the NE’s to be essentially giant punching bags. That said, I abhore the act of genocide period. Yes Sylvanas ordered what she did and the Horde army did what it did. However the thing that disturbs me greatly is how it feels like a lot of Alliance folks feel like an eye for an eye is fair, and then convince themselves that genocide itself is an appropriate response and feel justified in the mass murder of innocents. When people feel justified in genocide, well sorry, but that’s straight evil no matter how you slice it.
Damn, I really do miss Thrall’s Horde. Blizz writing this travesty not once, but twice really brings out the literal worst in people.
this…we can agree upon. They had to reach for a bad story to make premise for this expac and it just went all over and sour.
I mean I roll both sides and can’t even play devils advocate. WHole expac for my horde has been forced gameplay all in all. No story to bite into, just here for the levels and the gear. THen I take them back to legion and pretend BFA is just the gear expac lol.
Kind of like a really bad conscientious objector lol. But…I needed the level 120 to hit 9.0 and a better story (hopefully) really for them.
Man ditto. Bipzi is a Goblin that learned about the Light from the Aldor and thus is a devout follower of the Naaru and the Light when it comes to RP. You can just imagine her feelings on all this and I don’t blame her at all when she got busted hurling in disgust at the news of what happened while she was hanging out at the Netherlight Temple. Of course because she is a Goblin… apparently she deserves death are far as many Alliance are concerned.
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Your name is Sylvanas…NIGHT ELVES! DIRECT YOUR RAGE TOWARDS THIS ONE!
He did this literally right before the Purge of Stratholme began.
For the scourge, not Lordaeron. Hard concept to understand, I know.
So can I say that all San’layn are all still aligned with the Sin’dorei. What about Varok Saurfang’s son? Is he Horde aligned still too? Being raised into undeath doesn’t make you still aligned to the faction you were from. Unless you’re going to sit here and make the argument that all Death Knights before the rebellion of Mograine were all serving the Alliance and Horde still.
The scourge.
To fight mal’ganis
Corruption that he could not saved stopped.
Who were undead.
Sylv…
Sylv,
Sylv…
Sylvor MOON NANANANANAASSSS!
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I didn’t even Godwin, but I like how that when I mention something remotely related to WW2. You IMMEDIATELY jump on and say, “uh oh he did a worse than hitler!” That’s how poor your argument is.
You have to reach so hard that you have to make me seem like I said someone was worse than hitler.
The Nuremberg Defense is a phenomena that I brought up because it’s relevant.
I know what the Milgram Experiements are. They were a psychological case study about power dynamics. It wasn’t a study which the conclusion was to exonerate all people who fought for the Germans. This was a study about ordinary people who were affected by power dynamics to make an immoral choice.
The Horde soldiers who fought in Teldrassil all went there with the intention to occupy Alliance territory. These people followed their orders as soldiers and aren’t innocent. They weren’t pencil-pushers or anything. These people were trained to kill, these aren’t innocent people we’re talking about.
Uh huh, yeah, when he ordered Uther and his paladins to assist in the culling and they said “no.” That’s the point.
For the mindless zombies that have no agency, desires, or goals? That’s not a “hard concept to understand” it’s flagrantly absurd.
The San’layn aren’t the leaders of Quel’thalas as a nation so it’s not even remotely comparable. Saurfang Jr ran in swinging and died, got ressed as a DK, and if I recall correctly didn’t do much other than hang around Ice Crown. I challenge you to find a point when he stopped being Horde. He was put down by the Horde. He was buried by the Horde. He was still a member of the Horde even in death and he wasn’t the direct heir to the Warchiefship now was he? You’re not making good comparisons here.
So, again, he fought for the army of undead that allegedly didn’t have any form of agency or desire? Again, absurd. The Scourge existed because Ner’zhul had goals relating to the Burning Legion. Arthas did what he did to gain power because of his failure to protect the people of Lordaeron. That is a direct altruistic motivation that was twisted over the course of his journey.
Pretty sure there’s a lot of Scholomance Necromancer folk that are still breathing even Post-Cataclysm.
They need to do something or have something happen otherwise it’s all boring tedium and aesop karma houdini Amnesia. Like OJ simpson getting away with murdering his ex wife and boyfriend.
They didn’t even mention her once at Blizzcon. Well there goes that hope.
Nope. You’re lying again.
Arthas dismissed and relieved Uther and his paladins from his service, that’s literally what happened at the culling.
Your entire argument is flagrantly absurd.
You’re unironically saying that the Scourge is the same thing as the Alliance.
Just like how Arthas didn’t fight for Lordaeron.
It’s strange how you can understand that Varok and the San’layn weren’t representatives of their own faction, while somehow Arthas was aligned with the Alliance of Lordaeron.
It’s almost like you can’t put two similar concepts together or you’re actually being dense.
Wow so he was corrupted? Like I said before? And then you backpedaled to the same moronic argument that Arthas was aligned with Lordaeron despite destroying his own kingdom and forsaking his loyalty with the Alliance.
You know the previous example that I went over literally two quotes ago comparing how Varok wasn’t Horde aligned and actually fell to the scourge?
And?
Oh I’m a liar am I? Well that’s funny, because here’s where he does it:
So which part am I lying about exactly? Go ahead, call me a liar again. That way I know you really are just a waste of my time.
Thanks for that hot opinion but calling something absurd doesn’t make it absurd. You are denying that Arthas and the Scourge came from the Alliance. They absolutely 100% did come from the Alliance, were composed of members of the Alliance, and were led by the heir to Lordaeron. This is all evidence that supports my argument. Meanwhile you have nothing but denial.
You know it’s funny, I pointed out to you why your comparison isn’t relevant with structurally valid reasoning for why it isn’t relevant. You know, the part where neither of your examples were the actual monarchs or leaders of the things you refer to in relation to their position. But then you just repeat yourself incredulously as if that is somehow a reasonable response. It’s almost like you’re incapable of formulating a structurally valid argument and just repeat yourself because you’re confused how to proceed.
Ah here’s the part where everything everyone says MUST support your argument and everyone else defeats their own argument with the premises established to support it right? Confirmation bias so great it’s nauseating and pathetic.
You just said they were undead idiot. There’s dozens of them, many in leadership positions, that are still very much alive. But clearly you have to ignore this and question its relevance. You’re deeply lacking in critical thinking capacity.
maybe its best… other wise we are in for more bruising
Yes this is why the best Night Elf writing is in Heartstone, they’re that much relevant.