Sorry Anya, it ain’t gonna work. Our project leader also tried to harness the rage of the WoW playerbase, focused specifically on Sylvanas-related issues. We had early breakthroughs and things looked great! But then we started facing problems because the energy source is so terribly unstable. You have to account for variables like the Nathanos Snark Complex, the Calia-Voss Principle, the Forsaken are Lordaeronians Paradox, the Vengeance for Gilneas Conflagration, and of course, the all too unstable and unpredictable Sylvanas Stans-Tyrande Stans Infinity Loop.
There’s just far too many factors that utterly ruin any possible experiment. I’d suggest you do as we did and focus on a less volatile energy source. We went with the energy released by troll lore rage. It’s pretty stable, has very few variations, and remains a constant flow for our experiments. Go for worgen, they’re unlikely to see much change and provoke quite a bit of potent rage-energy.
You’ve only seen failure because you haven’t harnessed Human Potential™ in your equation.
Whenever you have humans involved, you have to give them more weight for that ethnocentrism perk. This can only be off-set by the latent closeted racism that comes with it, or orcish honor. Orcish honor can offset one HP unit with two orcish honor points.
I don’t think the problem is them being part of the expansion. But these characters, when intereacting with Alliance players, would have to show that they regret what they did during bfa, and that they are trying to fix it. That’s all that’s really needed I think.
But I’m saying that I don’t think they would. That’s what I mean by “handcuffing the Horde experience” - that everything Horde characters do now has to be written for the benefit of Alliance players. We have to put up with Tyrande being varying degrees of rude to Horde characters - you can put up with Horde NPCs not groveling at the feet of every Alliance player.
And the reason for that is because of what the Horde did. I get that you want to pretend that bfa never happened, but I will not. Not if I want to care the story to any degree. If Horde characters don’t regret what they did to the Night elves, and they dared speak to me about it, then my first action would be to throw them into the maw myself. Why you find the idea of Horde characters being remorseful about genociding the Night elves and sending their souls to the equivalent of hell is beyond me.
Fair. Even so, I don’t understand why Jellex dislikes the idea of having Horde characters show regret over what they did. Unless she thinks the Horde feeling nothing over burning the majority of a race to cinders, and civilians to boot, is the right direction for the Horde. In that case, I can only say no, never, and absolutely not.
I think we all can agree that Tyrande being hostile to horde players is in character for her.
Thing is, what would be the better option?
-Alternative questline for the Horde?
-Have a Horde character be between you and Tyrande instead of Shandris as a reason figure?
-Have a horde focused campaign on another covenant to balance it out?
I think the two of you are looking at it from different perspectives. I hope I’m not being presumptuous by assuming you’re still looking at it from an in-universe view, hence your comment about wanting to throw unrepentant ones in the maw. Jellex’s view sounds like it’s coming from that of a player at the computer, because of her resenting my earlier post about not being able to enjoy the story in the first place. I assume her immersion is already broken and she wants a reason to reinvest.
I know it’s too late for this, since the covenant seems like it was designed from the ground up to be tied into this questline, but I would have preferred that Tyrande, Vol’jin, and Elune in general simply not have any storyline in Ardenweald at all.
I get that. But how exactly will completely ignoring bfa and pretend that it didn’t happen, thereby creating plotholes larger than Thrym, give her back her immersion? That’s the part I don’t understand. And how would characters ignoring bfa help her immersion? Seems more like it’s to patch up her shattered image of the Horde. And again, I fail to see how it does even that.
Honestly, I don’t know. I’m probably already speaking for Jellex enough and she’d have to answer that.
I’m personally a little more hardline with the opinion that it’s ruined forever and that nothing short of a retcon could undo it. Since that won’t happen, neither will getting its appeal back.
No, what I find difficult to comprehend is why every Horde character you might interact with ever must first apologize for Teldrassil. You are getting acknowledgement from the story that this happened. It is not being swept under the rug. If you don’t like the acknowledgement that you are getting, that is a different issue (because all of us have gotten monkey’s paw versions of what we want) but I think it is a little ridiculous to require that every interaction going forward include an apology.
My immersion has long since been broken. I only ever see writer fiat in the directions the story takes, and cannot attribute anything to organic characterization.
In addition, I object to my stance being characterized as “ignoring BfA completely”. I don’t like to be the person who trots out logical fallacies as if they are some kind of immutable trump card. But I think that this is a straw man, and not accurate to my position of “I think it’s ridiculous to demand that any Horde NPC the Alliance player encounters must apologize for Teldrassil.”
You know, I can agree here. Especially since it feels so hollow. It’s like Blizzard is saying “We’re Sooooorry” while rubbing their nips as they continue to used Kaldorei slaughter as a plot device for non Kaldorei story telling.
“We’re sorry but… nothing is going to change. Nothing is going to get better for you.”
Not forever. Until they have atoned, or been made to atone. Or their actions cease to have consequnces, like if the Night elves who died were mass ressed.
I’m not demanding that they prostrate themselves before me either. Just a few lines of dialogue along the lines of “if I could undo my actions at teldrassil I would”. Just them aknowledging that they made a mistake, and that they regret it. You don’t even have to see it yourself. Only for Alliance characters, if that makes you feel better.
That is a poor comfort considering the ramifications Teldrassil had, or rather the lack of such. Everything is chugging along in a rather normal fashion, and all the blame has been laid at Sylvanas’ feet. The story doesn’t aknowledge the Horde’s guilt whatsoever in Shadowlands, outside of Tyrande.
And many of those that were, were not comitting genocide intentionally either, they were fighting a War.
I think Horde characters apologizing would be bad and out of character. They’re about strenght and Honor, and they prove their honor through strenght.
To me, the only way i could see some Horde apology would be, let’s say Thrall gets the killing blow on Sylvanas, and then he just approaches Tyrande and delivers Sylvanas’ head to Tyrande, and they just nod at each other and each one go their way.
Horde is already solving the Sylvanas loyalist problem internally, and players and Tyrande are doing already what they can for the souls lost at Teldrassil.
The thing is the Horde still supported Sylvanas after the genocide. And I don’t mean they didn’t stand up to her, I mean supported her. Lor’themar, in 8.2, says that he hopes he can get the backing of his people because Sylvanas has the support of the people of the Horde, or something along those lines…
So yeah. As good as we want to say the Horde is, they seemed perfectly fine supporting Sylvanas and her genocide up until she was mean and called them nothing. In my opinion they should be apologizing. You know why? Because that is the only retribution the Alliance will EVER get on the Horde as a faction, everything else is scapegoated onto Sylvanas. Without the Horde apologizing, and making attempts to make amends, what incentive does the Alliance have to not just wipe the Horde out? (I don’t mean genocide I mean the complete dismantling of the Horde.)
Anyways, we also save 80 souls in the Maw who were from Teldrassil… there were thousands of people in Teldrassil. So we haven’t done squat to save the majority of those souls.
Unless Blizzard says otherwise, I think that’s just supposed to be a gameplay limitation in the same way you can’t realistically believe that only 900-something people were still left in the tree to begin with. You probably just have to squint your eyes and pretend your soul crystal is cramming them all in like a clown car inside a can of sardines.
We’re talking about a game here, every quest text says we saved the majority of night elven souls and poured them into ardenweald.
It even states how the crystal fitting that many souls was likely a blessing from Elune.
Horde apologizing would be out of character, fighting good battles from now and foward is both in character and the right move to do.
If the Draenej could move on from the path of Glory, i’m pretty sure living Night Elves can move on from Teldrassil, having the knowledge that night elf souls not only were saved, they are what most night elves would consider a Paradise, and that Sylvanas is done.