People say this all the time while there’s hundreds of groups in the group finder currently
You do realize that when you use this analogy, you’re doubly insulting delves right? lol
And we’ll see many casuals who don’t touch raids nor m+ are able to solo 11s. I’m betting it’s less than that of KSH
Strawman. No one said anything about best ever. Simply that the numbers show that it’s one of the most participated in events in WoW currently.
Yet it hasn’t. Which shows something. How well are those follower dungeons doing eh? You know…the not competitive crowd that was supposed to attract. Where are all those glory praising threads at? Lol
Just like everything in the world. Weird how that works. Or is m+ the only thing to ever have a niche!?
Just like WoW was going to die with TBC right? Right?
What’s wrong with saying increase raid loot to 40% of raid participation just like m+ ? how is that raiders get everything and no one else gets anything???
Not really true. It’s just that M+ has no lockout. Meaning in order to use anything to get ahead in raiding, you go to the thing you can spam and get 6 pieces of loot in an afternoon if you want. Then another 6 tomorrow. So on and so forth.
No, not in the slightest, i have never suggested thats what i want. I want raid to drop more things, i want raid to be able to drop loot more then once a week. I enjoy raiding far more then dungon content any day of the week. Im not asking for other methods to be ruined, im asking for methods to be brought up to the same level of gearing as other content in terms of their reliability and consistency.
Using delves and raids for example. If i kill every boss in the raid, i only get one roll a week at that. Vs delves i get easy 8 loot drops of champ gear, and 2 easy loot drops of heroic bythe end of the week.
Raid should be dropping more gear to be on par with that.
As I see it, the ramp up from heroic to M0 is still much steeper than it used to be before the change at the end of DF. It’s more noticeable now because we were going into M0 with much, much crappier gear, and hero specs are great fun but they don’t feel like they add that much power, compared to a mid-DF tier set for example, or bullion gear. That and we’re not super familiar with these dungeons yet (the TWW ones) and some are buggy/tuned weird.
So, they could make heroics harder? but that would create more problems. I have no great solution other than
-Roll back to the old system where M0 was basically heroics with a full roster of mechanics, and M2-M9 was a much more gradual ascent.
-Do Delves, in which case, this is working as designed. Doing a T8 with 590-600 is doable, and for some specs it’s free gear.
Mostly in part of not knowing the dungeons whereas we had 2 years prior to knowing the dungeons and being familiar with them, so we knew what to avoid and what to interrupt as well.
Literally not a waste of time if you get rating lol. Why would anyone invite someone whos trying to juml straight into a 7 without either knowing who they are or having the proof they can do the content
Right, but in relation from end of DF to here. The difficulty between Heroic and M0 didn’t change. It just seems steeper now because they’re an all new set of dungeons we haven’t dealt with before, and we’re not coming in with a prior seasons gear either.
There is no world in where in a normal raid. you kill 9 bosses and you get 9 items of loot.
thats not reality in any capacity.
I have no idea where you are getting this 45 items from, because you have to look at a single player.
I as a single player will not get any more then as you said 4-5 items a week from raid, IF im super lucky at that, like thats really REALLY lucky there.
Vs delves is 8 guaranteed champ pieces for me, and 2 heroic pieces easy. Which, i can do on my own dime, i dont need to worry about getting at minimum 9 other people together.
The effort to bang out 8 T8 delves is a fraction of running a full normal raid.
People don’t want personal loot in raids, so thus… the only loot that mattersi s the group.
I got 4-5 pieces in my normal raid pug last week, +1 from the vault. Took me 3 hours. It can happen.
It is better that people be pushed into the more accessible forms of content for efficiency than feeling pushed into the less accessible forms. This is SIMPLY FACTUAL from a community management perspective.
I’m sorry that it means you, as an obsessive min/maxer, feel obligated to do content that is more accessible. Genuinely, I am. But it would be EXTREMELY bad for the long-term health of the game and its community were raiding more efficient than other options.
Yes i agree with you, and M+ is far more accessible to gear then raid on an equivalent level, and now delves are as well.
What im saying is, for people who want to raid, and enjoy raiding, gear should be dropping more for them to actually compete with delves and m+ which raid does not any more.
Im not sure what you are assuming about me, but im not saying i want people to raid or die, im saying i want raid to be just as viable as the current methods of gearing are.
And from 8 T8 delves that i could do at my own time any time i want, i got 8 pieces of champ gear, and heroic item from the map, and a heroic item from my vault.
I got almost double the loot you got with a fraction of the coordination and effort needed to do that.
Im not saying i want that reduced, im saying i want raiding to be more reliable as delves or M+
But this is EXACTLY what would happen were raiding more efficient than other options.
And it is essentially impossible for ALL looting paths to be identical. One will always be found to be ‘most efficient’ and one will always be found to be ‘least efficient’.
Right now, a raid gives you 30-45 chances at loot for about ~2-3 hours of time spent. A mythic+ gives you a roughly ~1 in 3 chance at loot(from my experience) for ~20 minutes time. A delve gives you a guaranteed piece of loot up to ~5-6 times per week (4 keys from caches, 1-2 from fragments/worldsoul echos) with a hard cap based on keys.
Personally, it seems pretty reasonable for me - as someone who enjoys all three forms of content. Each has their pros and cons.
The only thing I could POSSIBLY see being added is a once weekly quest to kill ~3-4 raid bosses that rewards a random piece of raid loot for your class to award one guaranteed piece of loot for each player in the raid.
Please explain to me, how if raiding was dropping gear at the same level of Delves that it would then turn into raid or die? If i could get 8 items from delves, and 8 items from raid a week, how would that kill your ability to just do delves?
yes i agree, the problem here is not which is least and which is most, the problem is that raids are so far and away the WROST way to gear they are aweful to do in order to get gear, thats not good.
I understand that, but if the goal here is some player goes
“Hey i wanna gear champion gear.”
My options are M+ low level which is a lot of work rightn ow
Raid which at best can get me 4 items and 1 heroic item IF i can get a fresh group of at minimum 9 other people and we can actually clear it.
8 T8 delves which will get me 8 items, and 2 heroics.
WHich one seem like reasonable optiosn to you? The answer is delves first, then M+ then raiding.
Raiding for gearing has been aweful for several expantions now, hell the only reaosn to do it in DF was because it held trinkets hostage.
If you are getting 8 items form delves with 2 heroics, the odds of overlap is high enough that doing raids wont be effective time wise.
There is legit no reaosn to not have raids be dropping loot on equal level to delves or m+ at this point.
