I honestly don’t think anyone will get the mark. People who currently would will be creative enough to avoid it. We’ll know how many runs it takes through someone experimenting on ptr before it releases and most people who leave somewhat frequently don’t actually leave enough to get any mark.
Meanwhile, to people who think this is a major problem. Their experience won’t change. Multiple individuals in a row will still leave their keys after the vote is lost. To them, everyone is a leaver and the mark is broken/not working/bugged because all of the people they invited were clearly frequent leavers because they aborted them.
This whole issue has been negativity bias and myopia from the beginning and nothing will change.
But not necessarily the way you want if you’re not very careful about how you design your social engineering.
In this case, it’s not going to create an environment where people finish keys they don’t want to be in. It incentivizes confrontations and toxic behaviors where the group members will attempt to force the vote in the direction they want.
Instead of a conflict free dropping of group, this will create acrimony and eruptions of abject hostility. Yes, leaving a group isn’t ideal, but it is better than promoting actual fighting in the player base.
It’s actually much easier to just ask before the key goes in than it is to waste half hour of your time trying to get the group members to kick you.
This change incentivises people being clearer about their expectations before the key. Previously there was no downside to simply ignoring the rest of the group’s wishes. Now there is.
Why is this suddenly true when, for reasons that I still don’t understand, it was seemingly impossible for most people who wanted to complete to ask before the key goes in?
No, this is what you want the change to incentivize. People are going to keep queuing up to groups that will take them, hoping for the best. Once it becomes clear to them that it’s going to be more than they signed on for, instead of leaving they will just need to convince 2 other people to vote their way. The longer that convincing takes the more aggressive the persuasion will get. That’s reality.
Nah, it simply makes people think about the keys they’ve already left this week. If none, bounce. If a couple throw up a vote every pull. If a lot, there are ways to grief with plausible deniability.
I assure you, this system will change nothing.
Another thing: I’m pro consent. I’m voting to disband every single time that ish pops up. Someone in the group is wanting to leave, I’m not gonna hold them there whether they plan to grief or not.
Again, you don’t seem to understand that all of this effort is a lot more than simply asking before the run starts. Previously there were no repercussions at all for just saying nothing, then leaving whenever it suited you. Now there are. That will change the way people behave.
Still aren’t. You get a single tick on your tick sheet. If you’re not a troll who joins just to leave, you will experience nothing.
I think it will, but simply because the fear that something might happen is a powerful tool of control used for thousands of years. I truly think supporters are giving this way more power than it actually has (much like the power given to other authorities). You may speed in your car many times before you’re caught, but unlike speeding, you can’t get caught the first time and you will eventually be caught (not just statistically).
Ask what? Are any of you terrible enough that the key is going to be hopeless halfway through? No point in asking because the terrible players often don’t even know they’re the bad one. Easier to join, hope for the best, vote to quit if it’s sucks, and make sure the vote passes if people want to finish.
Probably wouldn’t phrase it like that but yeah, just ask if they plan on completing no matter what, or if they are happy to bail if it’s bricked. Took me less than 20 seconds to type that.
I don’t think anyone’s under the impression they’re going to CHANGE people into becoming altruistic. What dynamics like this do is try and alter the equation so that everyone will continue to act selfishly, but the selfish best interest is simply actually working with your team for the time you elected to commit to playing with them in a team game.
This sort of system isn’t even a new system; it’s been used in other games. Developers have information they’ve gathered from good and bad ways to implement versions of this specific logic, and data about how it affects player behaviour. That it won’t stop 100% of instances of players inting/griefing the group isn’t a marker that the system may not be an overall benefit.
I hate it because i sat there looking for a group for 30min.
I want to actually play the game, not spend 30min in queue just for someone too leave over sone dumb reason after 2min, then go back to another 30min queue.
Id rather fail 80% of my keys and finish every dungeon instead of timing all but only finishing 20%.
Then you need to build groups with 4 other people who feel the same way, because many players have no interest in finishing a key out of time. That’s not the wrong way to play, it’s just wrong for you.
Blizzard seems to much more so agree with me.
Especially since they are doing this now, with the whole leaver debuff they are adding this seems too be saying they would prefer for it too be how i view it.
Not at all. There will be, most likely, an overwhelming majority of keys that are unanimously disbanded.
All this new debuff will do is put a small impediment for those who want to leave a group that isn’t unanimous. They will, however, only need to make things bad enough until 2 other people will vote with them and the key will still be abandoned with no penalty.
All we can truly say about the change is that they want the key holder to agree to disband. The info from the ptr says 4 votes to leave and the key holder is 2. It disincentives people from being the first to leave or leaving randomly, but ultimately does nothing to really stop it from happening.
As someone who nearly exclusively runs my own key, I can appreciate the key holder having an outsized say and being able to be overridden by the rest of the group. That said, no one will stay in a key that’s grossly out of time just because the 2-3 players want to sweat it out and have nothing better to do.
Play a role that matters then. If you refuse to do that because you’re just too casual to worry about doing something with some responsibility, do what I do when applying to keys: download “premade group filter”, apply to 5 keys (the limit), if one turns red, theyve filled your role, cancel your sign up. If a key app goes to 4m, accept you’re not getting invited and cancel and keep applying.
The key community is often pretty inconsiderate with peoples’ time so they don’t decline anyone. Not me, I know pretty quickly I’m not inviting most people and decline them so they can apply elsewhere.
The beauty of this system is that you don’t have to. People are acting like getting the debuff means you can’t play any more. Not the case, you can still join groups in LFG that don’t care if you left, and you can still join a group with friends and your debuff will be gone. It’s only a social penalty, and many groups actually won’t care at all that you left a dead key. The only people who are going to care about your debuff are people who want to complete, which are the people you don’t want to be playing with anyway.
How do you still believe anyone is actually going to get this debuff? It will likely take multiple left keys in a row, and that alone will protect an overwhelming number of people from ever being at risk of getting it.
Will any completed key break the streak? If yes, then expect people to do ten minute 2s to cleanse an unlucky streak.
And both of these assume that people are leaving in spite of failed votes, which overlooks the obvious and available solution, which is to force the vote. Nothing in my experience with the WoW community makes me believe that people won’t simply fight until they sway the votes they need.
There is no “beauty” to this system, outside the delusions of the people who can’t seem to accept that trying to force peoples’ behavior often causes them to chafe and rebel against that control.
I don’t think they’ll ever reveal the logic of the system, and they’re going to be deliberately cagey on what it looks for.
Based on what’s actually used in other games, it’ll be a combination of multiple factors, of which X “leaves” in a row will only be one. Other factors will include “X leaves within a given time period”, “X% leaves in the last Y dungeons”, some factor based on time from start of dungeon, etc. There are a few others I don’t want to get into, but these are obvious ones players already know about.
How many of those that will have to be hit, how they’re weighted, etc., are all things that they also won’t reveal, and things they can and probably will adjust in real time until they feel there’s a perception things are working well.
I’m pretty sure “forcing the vote” in the various ways people have speculated about in this thread are already reportable activities that will result in far more drastic action than getting a random debuff, and if not they’ll simply make them reportable.
Inting and griefing/non-participation is already a thing other games with similar systems have to deal with, and they’ve done exactly that. From what I’ve seen, players’ general ire quickly goes on the person doing the griefing, not on “the system” for “incentivising” it, and I don’t think Blizzard will mind if the kind of person who’s likely to grief players in a dungeon group to “force the vote” leaves the player pool. That’s an inevitable thing that’ll need to happen for improving the “toxic” reputation of the WoW community that you’re alluding to anyway.