You wouldn't know it with the army they had helping out in Suramar.10/23/2018 02:09 PMPosted by DroitéDidn't Quel'thalas and the majority of the High Elf population only get decimated like ... less than 15 years ago? I'm not sure thats doing "well for themselves".
10/23/2018 02:51 PMPosted by JerolanYou wouldn't know it with the army they had helping out in Suramar.10/23/2018 02:09 PMPosted by DroitéDidn't Quel'thalas and the majority of the High Elf population only get decimated like ... less than 15 years ago? I'm not sure thats doing "well for themselves".
They weren't doin anything else in Legion lol!
I'm just saying that the losses suffered during WC3 seem to affect the blood elves shockingly little on the world (of warcraft) stage. They seem competent, have plenty of forces to contribute to the Horde's efforts wherever needed, they aren't refugees or anything. Oh, and they're allowed to win conflicts every once in awhile.10/23/2018 02:58 PMPosted by DroitéThey weren't doin anything else in Legion lol!
Are you saying the night elves have to wait another 13 years for Tyrande to complete Liadrin's hand-me-down arc so that we might succeed at anything?
<span class="truncated">...</span>Literally every other elf seems to be doing well for themselves, or at least not much worse than the other races. The worst that's happened to the blood elves in recent memory is that they got chased out of Dalaran once. It's only the night elves that seem to get this treatment.
Didn't Quel'thalas and the majority of the High Elf population only get decimated like ... less than 15 years ago? I'm not sure thats doing "well for themselves".
They were then forced to heavily adapt their civilization to survive, renaming themselves to the Blood Elves, and only really managing to attain some stability with the cleansing of the Sunwell 6 years later? Their entire royal line is gone, there is a reason that Lor'themar is the "High Reagent"; there are no more kings.
Lets see if this sounds familiar: After the Third War (War of Thorns) many elves of Quel'thalas (Teldrassil) came to view the Holy Light (Elune) with contempt. This led to a great number of Blood Elves (Night Elves) losing their faith ... coming to believe that the Light (Elune) had failed them in their homeland's hour of greatest need.
Once a High Priestess of the Light (Elune), Liadrin (Tyrande) became disillusioned with her faith after the Scourge (Horde) invasion of Quel'thalas (Teldrassil) and spent years honing her martial prowess against the undead (Horde). She then partook in a radical idea, the empowerment of Light (Elune) Wielding Warriors...
A lot of people are familiar with the parallels between Lidrian and Tyrande. Both of their cities were destroyed by an undead warlord, both renounced their priesthood, took up new arms and new armor, both performed a ritual with a holy being to gain new power, and both formed new elven armies.
However the similarities end there because their stories took radically different turns, where the Blood Elves recovered, and the Night Elves do not. The Blood Knights become a permanent and powerful branch of Silvermoon, and are strong enough to lead the Horde in multiple military excursions, including: Isle of Thunder, Suramar, and Stromguard. They were successful since inception. The Night Warriors however, are not paladins, and were quickly wiped out by the Horde soon after Tyrande's ritual. They are not a mighty new army for the Night Elves, instead they are now undead dark rangers working for the Horde.
At the height of their genocide, the Blood Elves still had the strength thanks to their new powers granted by a holy being, to purge most of quel'thalas of the Scourge and demons. Tyrande, the Night Warriors, and Elune fail to reclaim their homeland, unlike Lidrian and her Blood Knights.
Silvermoon, after the victories of the Blood Elves, is recovering greatly. The fel influences are gone, their corrupt prince was replaced with a trusted ranger-general, and their Sunwell is restored stronger than ever. Teldrassil and its city cannot be rebuilt. It will never come back, it's too much of a dangerous target. The powers that blessed and protected the tree no longer exist, and a new tree would fall even easier to corruption or fire.
This is the biggest difference; the blood elves had help from both enemies and allies, the Night elves were alone in their attack and recovery. The Blood Elves were lucky that the Draenai and Adal formed the Shattered Sun to help them recover Quel Thalas, even after they sabotaged and killed Draenai. Velen and Muruu's power restarted the Sunwell, giving them and their city a new fount of magic. Elune's holy power however, wasn't strong enough to empower her armies, her avatar, or save her people. Unlike Muruu's holy power.
The worst difference however, is that the Blood Elves helped an undead warlord inflict another elven genocide and force their fallen into undead servitude. Unless Lidrian offers to plant a new World Tree herself, their stories are hardly similar.
10/23/2018 02:09 PMPosted by Droité10/23/2018 12:52 PMPosted by Jerolan...Literally every other elf seems to be doing well for themselves, or at least not much worse than the other races. The worst that's happened to the blood elves in recent memory is that they got chased out of Dalaran once. It's only the night elves that seem to get this treatment.
Didn't Quel'thalas and the majority of the High Elf population only get decimated like ... less than 15 years ago? I'm not sure thats doing "well for themselves".
They were then forced to heavily adapt their civilization to survive, renaming themselves to the Blood Elves, and only really managing to attain some stability with the cleansing of the Sunwell 6 years later? Their entire royal line is gone, there is a reason that Lor'themar is the "High Reagent"; there are no more kings.
Lets see if this sounds familiar: After the Third War (War of Thorns) many elves of Quel'thalas (Teldrassil) came to view the Holy Light (Elune) with contempt. This led to a great number of Blood Elves (Night Elves) losing their faith ... coming to believe that the Light (Elune) had failed them in their homeland's hour of greatest need.
Once a High Priestess of the Light (Elune), Liadrin (Tyrande) became disillusioned with her faith after the Scourge (Horde) invasion of Quel'thalas (Teldrassil) and spent years honing her martial prowess against the undead (Horde). She then partook in a radical idea, the empowerment of Light (Elune) Wielding Warriors...
I thought he meant elves in wow. When have the Blood Elves endure as much loss as the Night elves in world of Warcraft?
10/23/2018 02:49 PMPosted by Drahliana10/21/2018 10:47 AMPosted by Resìleaf...
It also completely invalidates Warcraft 3 and the first meeting between Orcs and Night elves.
How should it? Given 5 digits of years between the two encounters, it's quite logical that Tyrande would not make any connection between Broxigar and the Orcs. That's the thing with time travel, as long as you don't muck up history completely, the little wrinkles you put in, smooth out over time... And as one should remember,the Bronze Dragons aren't above tampering with memories in order to keep the timeline in trim. Which presumably the Big Bronze D in charge would have had done once the time snarl he was in was taken care of.
Tyrande is stated to tear up whenever she thinks about Broxiggar to this day.
The Night elves built a statue of him.
Brox used Cenarius' very own axe, and he was the one who ordered the attack on the Orcs.
10/23/2018 03:21 PMPosted by KorraA lot of people are familiar with the parallels between Lidrian and Tyrande. Both of their cities were destroyed by an undead warlord, both renounced their priesthood, took up new arms and new armor, both performed a ritual with a holy being to gain new power, and both formed new elven armies.
However the similarities end there because their stories took radically different turns, where the Blood Elves recovered, and the Night Elves do not. The Blood Knights become a permanent and powerful branch of Silvermoon, and are strong enough to lead the Horde in multiple military excursions, including: Isle of Thunder, Suramar, and Stromguard. They were successful since inception. The Night Warriors however, are not paladins, and were quickly wiped out by the Horde soon after Tyrande's ritual. They are not a mighty new army for the Night Elves, instead they are now undead dark rangers working for the Horde.
At the height of their genocide, the Blood Elves still had the strength thanks to their new powers granted by a holy being, to purge most of quel'thalas of the Scourge and demons. Tyrande, the Night Warriors, and Elune fail to reclaim their homeland, unlike Lidrian and her Blood Knights.
Silvermoon, after the victories of the Blood Elves, is recovering greatly. The fel influences are gone, their corrupt prince was replaced with a trusted ranger-general, and their Sunwell is restored stronger than ever. Teldrassil and its city cannot be rebuilt. It will never come back, it's too much of a dangerous target. The powers that blessed and protected the tree no longer exist, and a new tree would fall even easier to corruption or fire.
This is the biggest difference; the blood elves had help from both enemies and allies, the Night elves were alone in their attack and recovery. The Blood Elves were lucky that the Draenai and Adal formed the Shattered Sun to help them recover Quel Thalas, even after they sabotaged and killed Draenai. Velen and Muruu's power restarted the Sunwell, giving them and their city a new fount of magic. Elune's holy power however, wasn't strong enough to empower her armies, her avatar, or save her people. Unlike Muruu's holy power.
The worst difference however, is that the Blood Elves helped an undead warlord inflict another elven genocide and force their fallen into undead servitude. Unless Lidrian offers to plant a new World Tree herself, their stories are hardly similar.
The Blood Elves recovered ... sure, but it wasn't right away ... and it took them roughly 6 years to really get back on their feet again (and even then, they haven't fully recovered). Its been, something like 3 to 4 months tops in game since "The War of Thornes"? The BE's also had to adapt their civilization fairly heavily to ensure their survival before regaining stability, most notably in the way they satiate their lethal mana addiction. They were ALSO alone when their civilization was destroyed.
You're consolidating YEARS of struggling and hard work by the BE's to rebuild themselves into something new (a process they aren't even finished doing), and comparing it to several months for the NE's. They aren't the only race to get kicked hard either, the Gilneans and Gnomes took immense population hits and the latter still doesn't have its home back (in fact, they've "lost" their leader AND had their home insultingly turned into a pet-dungeon in the same patch).
As for "The Burning of Teldrassil" and the Blood Elves participation in it, I agree ... they should be incredibly concerned and upset by the fact that they were made complicit in such an act. They should be at the forefront of the Anti-Sylvanas movement; even more so than Baine. Its part of the reason I'm so utterly dissapointed by the fact that the BE's have taken such a huge back-seat this expansion and have been largely ignored beyond being warfront mooks.
10/23/2018 02:09 PMPosted by DroitéLets see if this sounds familiar: After the Third War (War of Thorns) many elves of Quel'thalas (Teldrassil) came to view the Holy Light (Elune) with contempt. This led to a great number of Blood Elves (Night Elves) losing their faith ... coming to believe that the Light (Elune) had failed them in their homeland's hour of greatest need.
Once a High Priestess of the Light (Elune), Liadrin (Tyrande) became disillusioned with her faith after the Scourge (Horde) invasion of Quel'thalas (Teldrassil) and spent years honing her martial prowess against the undead (Horde). She then partook in a radical idea, the empowerment of Light (Elune) Wielding Warriors...
Oh, gods, you're right.
Next time on Dragoball Z: Due to Kael'thas (Tyrande) going AWOL, a former military commander, Lor'themar (Maiev), steps up to lead the Sin'dorei (Kaldorei). The Blood Elves (Night Elves) are a battered, fractured people, unable to muster military force outside of soldiers sent to clean up the remnants of the Scourge invasion of Quel'thalas (the Horde invasion of Ashenvale and Darkshore). They remain in this state until the end of TBC (BfA), where the final raid restores the Sunwell (removes the Horde presence from Ashenvale and Darkshore and serves justice for Teldrassil).
Kael'thas (Tyrande) delves into Fel magic (becomes the living embodiment of the Night Warrior) in a desperate bid to save his (her) people, but his (her) newfound power becomes too much for him (her) and he (she) ends up as an antagonist, cultimating in him (her) being a boss encounter, driven mad by Fel (the Night Warrior's 'wrath').
The new customisation for Night Elves becomes the baseline appearance for the race in a patch; the original skin tones are still there, but all Night Elf NPCs and PCs have the new eyes.
I bet actual money on this happening.
10/23/2018 03:44 PMPosted by Resìleaf<span class="truncated">...</span>
How should it? Given 5 digits of years between the two encounters, it's quite logical that Tyrande would not make any connection between Broxigar and the Orcs. That's the thing with time travel, as long as you don't muck up history completely, the little wrinkles you put in, smooth out over time... And as one should remember,the Bronze Dragons aren't above tampering with memories in order to keep the timeline in trim. Which presumably the Big Bronze D in charge would have had done once the time snarl he was in was taken care of.
Tyrande is stated to tear up whenever she thinks about Broxiggar to this day.
The Night elves built a statue of him.
Brox used Cenarius' very own axe, and he was the one who ordered the attack on the Orcs.
I don't see this in game, so I suspect that your reference is from a book written by someone who probably may not have been schooled in the history of the RTS. As I recall, a disguised Korialstraz delivered Broxigars's axe to Thrall himself.
For Ilthen, if you still come around to check this thread, there have been some updates on the PTR:
10/24/2018 05:45 AMPosted by MoonweaverThankfully they changed some small things.
the queen title :
https://imgur.com/Puna0ZN
Astarii Starseeker's corpse :
https://imgur.com/pVKwZly
10/24/2018 07:08 PMPosted by PortergaugeA few things got changed/fixed on the PTR with Darkshore stuff.
https://i.gyazo.com/1d2183cce0b54c804779317c989aa488.jpg
https://i.gyazo.com/d593cad8d4059be4d444b91f1954e928.jpg
She now kills all the other forsaken, and leaves him as more of a monument to it.
https://i.gyazo.com/86f9487dcaaa15f214847d98fb042729.png
Nathanos holding his own for a little bit instead of just being incinerated is explained by being empowered by the Val'kyr.
Couldn't get screenshots of it, but Tyrande on the Horde version as a new ability, Dark Side of the Moon, which are void orbs and hurt like a truck, so no more just auto attacking. Throughout this, Tyrande is also repeatedly dodging Nathanos' arrows.
https://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=234668/dark-side-of-the-moon
Amazing post, OP. The Blizzard writers have screwed up MONUMENTALLY this expansion. It's nothing short of disgusting.
11/13/2018 03:28 AMPosted by AtharnosAmazing post, OP. The Blizzard writers have screwed up MONUMENTALLY this expansion. It's nothing short of disgusting.
Some recent statements made by Terran Gregory does give me -some- hope. I must admit. Time will tell if that is false hope or not.
Blizz told us to go to Twitter a few years ago, as that was where they said they were listening. In the following years most of the devs who communicated in that venue have deleted their accounts (I miss Lore :'( ), fans are asked to direct communication to one of two generic accounts when they have issues, and those two accounts often tell us to post on the WoW forums for a better shot at getting answers.10/18/2018 08:23 PMPosted by Murdra10/18/2018 08:19 PMPosted by Ilthen...
Forgive my ignorance, but, what exactly does GD mean?
General Discussion. It's the best hope you have that your thread get's noticed by Blizzard.
That or twitter but I don't have one so I don't know how effective that is.
In summation: Don't go to Twitter.
As for the OP: Thank you for saying everything I've felt and wanted to say. I am deeply sorry that my instinct is nobody of importance will see or heed it.
10/18/2018 03:13 PMPosted by IlthenFirst things first, 8.1 Spoiler Warning.
Hi there.
Fully knowing the dangers of posting an opinion in a public forum (ignominy, scorn, trolls, etc), I still do this in hopes it can reach its intended recipients. I hope the readers can understand this intends to share my feelings and experiences, instead of minimizing your enjoyment or concerns, if any, on the game's story.
If you happen to agree with any of my points, I do like the idea of more voices adding their similar experiences that the Devs can attribute more weight to them. I sadly won't be able to keep a lot of track on it.
Now then...
To the Warcraft Storywriters
I am writing to connect with you as a long time player, and fan. I admit, I have always identified with Night Elves above all others, ever eager to learn more about their lore and see them represented in game. In the past expansions, however, I’ve begun to feel like I'm being punished for that love.
It was in Dolanaar, during that quest with the Satyr who tricked you, where I remember feeling like the cleverest person in the world for comboing Gouge and Backstab during a tough spot. Falling from the giant tree, Aldrassil, was my first experience dying in the game. I felt so privy to the world when I discovered the secret romance of the Rogue Trainer in Dolanaar to the one under the boughs of the Darnassus’ Cenarion Enclave. I spent so much time learning to use about Thottbot just to complete the quests of Gwyneth By’Leggonde to find those washed up monsters on Darkshore. And who can forget that damned gnome’s quest to get smashed? Or that jumpscare moment when you were roaming Ashenvale and had your first meeting with the enormous wolves and bucks that roamed the northern border of Felwood? Through all of those quests and so many others, I fell completely in love with the Night Elves: they introduced me to the World of Warcraft.
Then, the story destroyed all that connection in a manner as ignominious as possible. Killing all the above NPCs and places in a manner as contemptible as it's been handled is not empowering, or rallying at all.
My concern with the current state of the game is the ignominious sacrifice of characters and stories in the service of a defunct plot. And it's not the first time. For Night Elves, Deathwing’s passing through Darkshore causes havoc and tragedy (compare the tragic questlines on Darkshore to...claw marks on Stormwind). But it serves no purpose other than to say how sad and beaten Night Elves are and then they do nothing about it. I can understand the use of tragedy as a rallying point – but not when it leads to nothing. This repeats itself later, only a few steps away from Darkshore. All through Ashenvale, Hellscream’s rampage destroys a people who’ve fought for that forest for so long, and none of the questlines gave any sense of closure. There was no feeling of having earned them any sort of reprieve. And at the very end, Tyrande’s appearance in the Siege of Orgrimmar raid felt brief and unfulfilling, and paled in comparison to what was lost. At the end, it felt like the Night Elves had no part whatsoever in bringing them down.
It was at that point that the writing for Night Elves began to feel not as a series of blunders or part of the inherent difficulties of in-game writing, or wording mistakes, but as active malice.
Outside of the game, it was even worse: “The Shattering” had one of the coolest Classic late game NPCs slaughtered ignominiously: the druid who summoned the Ancient in Alterac Valley (She later returned as another monster to kill in Legion). In “Wolfheart”, the Night Elves are out-ambushed by orcs. At night. In Ashenvale. "Silly" is just the kindest description of it. In “Tides of War”, Pained becomes nothing but sentimental fodder to be killed for Jaina’s grief. In "Before the Storm", there is a brief, cool moment where a lovely gnome character seems to have a crush on a Night Elven captain and...the elf dies paragraphs after that. A night elf poking their head in a Warcraft written story is like poking into a guillotine’s lunette, the writers stepping into the role of the uncaring tricoteuses peddling hasty product nearby.
I’m not calling for revenge. It’s not about retribution. It’s not about making The Horde pay or suffer; I actually despise the idea of enjoyment in this story being based on a zero sum Schadenfreude game. It’s about vindication. It’s about validation. It’s about what the Night Elves are and fought for; every life in Darkshore, every death in Ashenvale, their values and what they stand for, to be shown having some worth to the story. Something where their way of life is shown to be good for something more than just fodder for The Horde, or new models to be corrupted/burned/in need of rescue, as was Hyjal, Val'sharah, The Wardens in Aszuna, and Vordrassil in Grizzly Hills (which are all storylines about how the Night Elves can't defend squat unless big heroes come and help them. It's not uplifting for any Night Elf fan to see them fail ubiquitously).
Now we have the new Battle for Azeroth Cinematics, quests, stories, the Warbringers, and 8.1, and as ever, the Night Elves are just shown crying, burning, trying and failing, losing everything shown before for no reason whatsoever other than to serve as a module for the story of others. For example: Delaryn, and Sira all serve as an extension of Sylvanas' story building her paralel to Arthas. But for the Night Elf story, they're just hope, killed, raised and used to mock them. They're just monsters that reflect Sylvanas.
Being empowered by a deity, and earning the power to bring ancient lands to...a standstill that logistically cannot have any victor does not feel like an empowering victory in any shape whatsoever.
Everything there is about them is systematically stripped, literally burned, ignored, and it's nothing a new eye color model update makes one feel rallied for. The savage and sometimes melancholic Night Elves one quested with so long ago feel like punishments for having ever empathized with their stories and values. The people who had the ‘Icon of Wisdom’ as a symbol of what they strived for; those who learned to treasure wisdom from the follies of the past and thus strove for a better future in fixing their mistakes and working with nature become proxies for someone else to shine.
As it stands, I'm dejected, dissapointed, even angry and sad. It's not just because of a recent thing, it's a pattern. The promises for fulfillment in the past have been hard at work earning mistrust. It was claimed last expansion was a love letter to the players, but to Night Elves, it feels like a creepy love letter Charles Manson would write its victims. And the future writing just feels like a looming threat. When it comes to Night Elves, Blizzard's writing turns into a Grand Guignol play written by a vindictive, drunken ex.
I don't demand anything out of this. I just want to expose the feelings WoW's story once brought for me. I am sure anyone who's read this far can remember their first levels in their game, their first NPCs and quests and how and when they learned the tricks of the trade of their class. But only for one race in the game, have those memories been replaced with slaughter for the purpose of mockery, contempt and 'empowerments' made fruitless by logistical stalemates for the sake of a story that, going by precedent, your people will never have a place in.
If you read it, thanks for your time and understanding.
Almost single-handedly Delaryn Summermoon's character in the Elegy novella got me to playing my night elf toons for BfA. Before that I was practically set on maining one of my Worgen characters first.
Though I'm disappointed in what happens to her now, if anything I'm not mad at her (and Sira's) fate in 8.1. Puzzled, disappointed, confused, certainly, but if the goal was to give night elf players even more reason for vengeance on the forsaken it certainly seems like it hit the mark.. o.O lol
11/13/2018 09:06 AMPosted by Akiyass11/13/2018 03:28 AMPosted by AtharnosAmazing post, OP. The Blizzard writers have screwed up MONUMENTALLY this expansion. It's nothing short of disgusting.
Some recent statements made by Terran Gregory does give me -some- hope. I must admit. Time will tell if that is false hope or not.
True but doesn't help when the other devs and writers out number him . Pushing there own narrative infront of others. Don't let this distract you from whats going on though. Stay focused.