It absolutely is a game issue. By overinflating item levels and giving away powerful gear for doing no effort content, it can ruin progression paths for people.
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So what? Itâs possible for people to gear in complete 340 from the new crafted gear (thatâs also a catchup implemented with 8.1) who completely skip normal dungeons. Content gets skipped as time passes. Thatâs how MMOâs work. They donât make you run through every tier of content ever before you can move on to the next tier. This isnât the era of attunements.
Be honest, itâs not a situation where I donât think itâs a problem but it is, itâs: âI donât see this as a problem, the developers donât see this as a problem, you do see it as a problem, too bad for you eh?â
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Donât you get it, the problem is clearly normal mode raiders not being more realistic about their skill level relative to item level, not casual Joe Schmoe world quester not being realistic about his effort relative to earned reward.
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So what about your anecdotal evidence? I hopped on my DH and tanked a M0 for a friend during the weekly dungeon quest. I got a 395 Lightning in a Bottle while doing content that rewards 370 gear. I laughed and equipped it and moved on. I didnât dwell about how my life was over or have an existential crisis because I got higher than normal BD loot in a M0. Clearly my anecdotal experience trumps your anecdotal experience. Thatâs how garbage logic works right? Youâll have to bear with me, Iâm not used to making fallacious arguments.
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Iâll agree with this. But this is why we are on a forum talking about a potential issue that was maybe overlooked. I know of 2 WoW devs armories, they are both mythic raiders. Maybe they donât know that this is hurting Normal raid guilds by pushing them into content they arenât ready for.
It wasnât overlooked. What you think of as an issue is, aside from what theyâve already talked about with the release dates resulting in some wonky ilvl overlap for normal raiders, entirely intentional. They even made the point about why the ilvl gap from one tier to the next is 30 ilvl and talked about it at length. I disagree with that position, but Iâm not going to sit here and pretend that their decision is wrong or talk about my opinion as if itâs a fact. Iâve even discussed that point with people in this thread. Hell, youâve shifted the goalpost so much Iâm not even sure what your argument is now. I guess youâve latched onto the claim of, âwah Iâm not ready for heroic but my guilds going in anyways! waah!â and want to pretend thatâs a legitimate or systemic problem caused by the catchup ilvl inflation. A single example doesnât make your case there. Show me this plethora of raiders who are upset that they have the ilvl to go into heroic and do the content.
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My point is that gear progression currently is terrible. Titanforging adds to that and is just a band-aid fix for a much bigger content issue in the game where they need to give these instant gratification lootbox surprises to try to keep people interested. Powerful epics rain from the sky and there is no sense in working towards goals because everything is completely random.
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Ive been playing since day 1 of wow. Nothing in the game has killed my desire to play as much as titanforging. Its the single worst thing they have added to the game. I personally know hundreds of players that quit over it.
I also hate ilvl scaling in pve and pvp. Iâm not happy at all with the game systems of BFA. Scaling from day 1 of bfa was a huge slap in the face.
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This is the CM we get? We want the Yak back!
How is this any different than the Broken Shore or relinquished gear from Argus? I mean, clearly if you donât like it now then you didnât like that either right? It was exactly the same thing. I could go all the way back to vanilla honor gear farm or BC badge farm or WotLK badge farm with the Icecrown dungeons that had higher ilvl gear. And yet they keep doing it? Which means you think itâs terrible, not that it is terrible. And they have the numbers that show what players spend their time doing. And they keep choosing to implement stuff like this. Which means theyâre doing it for a reason, the bulk of the playerbase likes the content and progression path even through catchup mechanisms. You donât like it, you want content taken away from people because they get rewards you think they donât deserve. Maybe in a few more years of complaining about something thatâs been in the game forever youâll realize no one cares what you think and stop trying to change it. If they did, casuals would stop playing and then the game would actually die.
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Warfronts should gear you up for LFR, at best. Maybe normal.
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Broken Shore and Argus gear gave you a RANDOM piece of gear for the slot.
Badge gear let you buy a SPECIFIC piece of gear.
See a difference? ![:thinking:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/thinking.png?v=6" ":thinking:")
And?
You complained about catchup progression, specifically content that let you overgear normal raids. This has been in the game for a long, long time. Whether the nuance was it allowed you to get a random piece of gear or buy set pieces of gear, weâve always been able to gear up through world/solo content to normal raid levels. Hell, LFR by itself preps people for normal raid ilvl for every possible slot. That combined with world bosses, which have been around for years, and weekly events which have also been around for years, are all that people have needed to do to gear beyond normal levels. This isnât some new thing that just started happening.
Nice deflect though. I notice you didnât answer my question.
Edit: I mean, if your point is we should have vendors we can buy exactly what we want off of instead of wq rewards or random loot from warfronts/M+ Iâm down for that. Iâve gotten stupid 370 boots on my new 120 mage at least 6 times now from invasions, no joke, and the bulk of her gear is ~355ish. Being able to buy exactly what I wanted would just make it easier to gear up.
I mean if I was to pick a progression model I would pick BC. There were very few if any catch ups and you had to actually progress thru the raids. Badge gear/PvP basically got you up to Kara but then you had to do the same progression as everyone else. Nothing gave you Sunwell quality gear exceptâŚSunwell.
I think he was wrong about the 390+ from world content. My characters are all around the 383-386 area and I do everything I can from that. Sure I am not really luck with titanforging and havenât spent my medals on that one ring but 390 is still too high I believe.
I donât, so that is âYou want the Yak backâ.
You are living in the past. You think progression should work like normal dungeons > heroic dungeons > normal raid > heroic raids> mythic raids, which is how it used to be.
Now they have given people who donât want to follow the raiding route other paths to take.
Your progression path is still intact.
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Iâm happy when someone else gets an upgrade. Really, I am. Because we succeed or fail together as a team, so an upgrade for one person helps the whole guild.
But titanforging in particular is out of control. Itâs not about the frequency of upgrades. Itâs about being appropriately rewarded for the content that youâre doing.
When someone AFKs a warfront, and gets a 400 (with no titanforged), it is invalidating the work of heroic raiding. When it titanforges up higher, it is invalidating the work of mythic raiding. The players who spend their time challenging their skill, deserve to be rewarded appropriately to the difficulty of that content. Those who are just being opportunistic about easy rewards, should expect the lowest level rewards.
This is not new to BFA. For example, I spent Legion raiding twice per week, wiped a ton in pursuit of my guildâs ATOC. We worked really hard learning the m+ system, and also wiped a ton working our way up to 15s for the reward cap. This was my wow life for over a year.
Towards the end of Antorus, I was catching up with a friend who occasionally ran LFR, did some pet battles, some world quests. He openly admitted that heâd never been in m+. He played fewer hours than me, and didnât even attempt to challenge himself as a player. Our average item level difference? 5 levels.
It was a wierd mix of emotions for me, because I was happy that he liked his toon, and was having fun playing. And I was happy that he had a way to play that worked for him. But I was really sad at the same time, because I felt that all those hours I spent learning fights were wasted. All that gold that I spent on flasks and potions and repairs, wasted. Why should I spend all that effort, if I can get within 5 item levels with absolutely no effort?
The problem with titanforging isnât jealousy. Itâs not got anything to do with proc rates. Itâs not even that itâs unpredictable if the RNG gods will smile. The problem with titanforging is that it breaks the skinner box.
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I said ~390, not 390+. By that I mean I have multiple characters that only do invasions, warfronts, warfront world bosses, I did do the weekly m0 quest with some of them (the ones it was easy for me to get groups), I do the emissary caches, but I havenât raided or done any M+ at all on them and theyâre all in the ballpark of 390ish. I have one thatâs 391 and a few that are mid to high 380âs. These are just my alts. Generally I do invasions on them until all the gear I can get from invasions is 370 or higher at which point I stop and park those toons until the next tier of catch up comes along (which Iâve been doing for years now through multiple expansions). Then besides the toons I consider alts, I raid with one toon and I run M+ with a different toon. My highest ilvl toon is actually the one I do mythic+ with.
I just think progression should give ample rewards based on difficulty and effort, not randomness.
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