Condescending and gas lighting this entire thread… really good community management! Make Warcraft Great Again! Bornakk 2020™!
There is an upside and a downside to WF/TF. We all know this, and I think I can stand behind either side of the argument. A poopy player getting amazing loot feels great… a great player not getting amazing loot feels poopy. All things perfectly balanced in this world the average would make no discernible difference.
However, we as players see far too regular WF/TF socketed items dropping. Be this in our small circle of friends, our larger guild communities, the local server community, or the regional community in activities like LFR and random group finder.
If I step into LFR just for some xmog as a “heroic/mythic” raider. Do I really want to see the clown in greens and blues get a better item than I could receive as base in the content I do? Do I want my own alt to get something like this in LFR? No, not at all.
Do I want to be put in the position next week in raid where I can’t trade X/Y/Z item, which I already have the base ilvl version of, with a fellow raid member because it simply got a +5 warforge? The upgrade being significant for them, but increasing less so for me? No, not at all.
Do I want to have a player with ~4 x max TFs equipped, 3 x static level purchasable azerite, and 1 x fixed level HOA joining my PUG and then completely invalidating that gear with an abysmal performance? No, not at all. Would I feel bad if I tried pointing that out/helping them? Yes, yes I would.
Ballsagna
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That in a nutshell is the issue. And it’s not a tf or wf issue, that’s a player issue! Almost everything you said is based on player perception of your skill based on your ilvl. When you and I both know ilvl sucks as a way of measuring skill. It would be like picking the guy wearing brand new Air Jordan’s for your b-ball team. The guy must be good because he’s wearing them. That’s basically the same as picking based on ilvl.
If skill was based on ilvl I could see the problem.
he’s probably one of those log off log on raiders. doesnt do his mythic 10, doesnt do his emmisaries, doesnt do weekly islands, study up a boss fight before raid and expects to be at the same power level of others that put more effort in the game. no idea why this bothers these players since they aren’t hardcore/semi hardcore. they dont push high keys, arena ratings, or mythic raid. but they want to limit other people rewards for their effort.
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doesnt study up boss fights/mechanics*
i believe the removal of master loot as made titanforging a bigger issue. before if a item titanforged, you could give it to someone that wants it because it was their best in slot gear and that they deserved it. now with personal loot, not only is it randomized who gets the loot, sometimes a person gets an item that he or she doesnt even want, but cant trade it because it titanforged so high. now they have a high i lvl item that they dont want, and that players that really wanted that item misses out on a huge upgrade on a item that was their bis. it really sucks. it happened to me last week. conclave drops a trinket that is bis for dh hunter, but a bm hunter in my group got it, its mediocre for him but it titanforged and he cannot trade it.
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Yeah, and that is a wrong and idiotic mindset.
Only 100% guild groups and I am fine with it.
Blizzard has confused rewards with feeling rewarded. You can be a cutting-edge mythic guild or a normal one and have the same chance at titanforging. Let alone all of the other content avenues which make it increasingly more likely to make what you get from raids not as impactful. I no longer get excited for receiving something in raid or mythic+ because the rewards are cyclic and it’s just as easy that next week you get one that’s 5% better, and the week after get one 5% better than that in your cache. Without limitations or caps your gear is just handed to you so long as you do content, and how fast it randomly bubbles up in ilvl is dependent on how much content you do, nothing more. Gear is simply a measure of how much you play or how lucky you are. Azerite just compounds this issue because they’re not always dramatically impactful, but you now have to juggle multiple permutations of Azerite traits. If you really want to care you can spend a lot more effort than we’ve needed to in the past for little benefit, and not caring will get you 90% of the way there anyway. It’s a rollercoaster of rewards we’ve gotten tired of.
I don’t really understand the Blizzard argument to it. They respond saying they’re personally happy to get gear and don’t think about others, yet also say they’ll get bored if they lack avenues to get better gear. Are they only playing to get gear? Why can’t the focus of the game be the gameplay and gear be rewarded for the tier difficulty of content not a consolation prize just for playing?
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If anything, there should be a “vote for” system for Master Loot to be enabled in non guild groups. At least that way players aren’t restricted from guild runs that are cross-server.
And people wonder why pugs fail, Look at all these people protecting this broken system. You have people who do wq’s and Warfronts who get gear that they shouldn’t have and then you have people with higher ilvls than the content they can do to upgrade those items. Causing this whole Raiderio system because you cant trust someones ilvl anymore because they could of just gotten extremely lucky and gotten a few Titanforges/Warforges and then they join the group don’t know mechanics and cause wipes, Yes they can learn but when your doing keys and other harder content stuff like that is annoying to have to teach someone. especially in the middle of a key when your upgrade on said key is time based. Titanforging/Warforging cause this and as long as its in the game there will be Raiderio or something like it to really see who know what they are doing. You use to be able to trust ilvl and stuff before because you use to have to do the hard content for mythic/Heroic ilvl gear, Now any rando can get carried by his guild in a +10 and basically get free mythic gear not even having to raid at all.
It might be the wrong mindset but the game is almost set up to be this way. If we look at multiple expansions we see that when new content comes out, old content become more or less irrelevant. Whats the point of doing the 1st raid of the expansion when we are on the 2nd or 3rd. When Broken Shores and Argus
came out it made the old dailies feel pointless outside of the 3-4 for the emissary box. When patches come out it makes “old” content feel pointless or at least less relevant. They try to remedy this with catch up mechanics, titan forging, ever scaling M+ and world which aren’t bad in theory because it allows everyone to play the freshest content. But it still instills the notion that old stuff is less rewarding and not worth doing as much. This creates conflict when you allow older aspects of the game give loot that has the potential to measure up to current content. What is the point of doing X aspect of the game versus Y which will give better rewards.
The power spike between each patch is so high that the reward does not match up to what is being presented as the “fresh and new” content. Imagine if there was no cap at all on Titanforging and it allowed you to go back to run content in MoP to get gear to run Mythic BoD. Sure this is an extreme example but its the same ideology that Titanforging follows. With there being such an emphasis on new content, Titanforging makes you go back to redo all the content you completed of the previous months. If there was an overall cap on how high TF could go or if there was a reduction on how far gear scaling could spread, then I don’t think people would have as much of an issue with having to more.
This could work if everyone agrees it could be ML otherwise one person doesn’t it is PL (with anonymous voting).
Alcohol is setup to be addictive, but it all boils down to personal responsibility same as your play in game.
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Don’t forget the obvious Retention mechanic that they will deny. stop playing for a month or two and come back, wf/tf galore. it seems the more you play the less of a chance you have to be enticed to play
Anyone I’ve ever talked to has said that WF/TF would be ok with a hard cap that does not scale past a tier above.
ex. Heroic drops 400, it should only WF to 410 and TF to 415 cap. This way, base Mythic gear in a raid is at a BASE level better or equal to a heroic piece if capped at ilvl from WF/TF. This allows for continuation of raid progression for the ‘lotto loot’ luck of scoring something better, and also rewards players for doing more content.
Bornakk, you’re going out of your way to act like this system is good when it’s only here to retain subs and keep us crossing our fingers for a slight upgrade from the loot lottery system that WF/TF is. If you want it to stay (and it is, we all accept that I think), then make the system still reward players who have higher content progression than others.
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Is this a serious question from a blue post?
Legion was a great expac but it suffered the same issue with artifact weapons - the more content you ran, the more likely you were to get another legendary that MAY be a BIS for you. It took me running every scale of content in Legion from LFR to Heroic, plus my M+ runs and daily emissaries, and I still didn’t get my two BIS legendaries until two iterations of changes and I was halfway thru progression on Nighthold. This ALONE proves that a player that does more content is bound to have a higher chance of upgrades or BIS gear.
The same concept applies to WF/TF. You can go in to a LFR raid and score a potential Mythic piece with the way the loot lottery system works now. That chance is even greater in Normal or Heroic because the base ilvl is scaled higher, which means that even a potential WF and not a TF could be better. The margin is lower, which means the chance is higher.
So yes, Bornakk… doing all of the content will reward a player generally more than someone just doing the content they want. I don’t understand how you’re arguing otherwise.
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Isn’t this the main issue then? There are pieces of gear people want to get and no definitive way to obtain it. Sure they could implement more and more content but that doesn’t stop hard caps on gear and sheer randomness to obtain it.
People have always joined groups regardless if they know the fights or not. Don’t blame the person doing the WarFronts for getting decent gear then trying to do something they aren’t accustom too. It’s like whipping a dead horse with your assumption. This is nothing new it’s a carry over from long ago.
Points of views do not always equal an argument…
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No, but sometimes not enough that I “want” to do. Right now I only do current content that awards 385 or higher gear. Usually those are just repeatable quests that I don’t really like doing but are a necessary grind.
Things I like doing are battlegrounds, achievements, transmogs, etc. If I found a guild I liked I’d probably do raids again but that’s always a big if. When you’re a casual player you have to work with what you have.
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