Titanforging and Warforging make me upset

[Cbegsdh-bleeding-hollow (Cbegsdh)]

The difference is the effort vs reward. Clearly we’re not going to see eye on this, and that’s fine but you’re wrong.

M+10 is supremely rewarding up to and even past a certain threshold and with the potential to be even better than mythic. Most trinkets for DPS is substantially better than the garbage they put in raids this expansion. The point is if I get 20 other players to do a raid with me the reward should be substantially greater, and from mythic should be the GREATEST.

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

@Cbegsdh-bleeding-hollow

Clearly we’re not going to see eye on this, and that’s fine but you’re wrong.

Did you hear that Orctang! Your opinion is wrong! His is right. Duh man get with the program!

[Orctang-area-52 (Orctang)]

@Cbegsdh-bleeding-hollow

Clearly we’re not going to see eye on this, and that’s fine but you’re wrong.

Clearly you are wrong! Oh wait, it is just your opinion anyway…

@Avagon-sisters-of-elune

Did you hear that Orctang! Your opinion is wrong! His is right. Duh man get with the program!

Some people just think their opinions mean more. Especially, if they have colored text.

[Cbegsdh-bleeding-hollow (Cbegsdh)]

Again, I see no reason to justify your belief otherwise besides just wanting WF/TF to remain.

There’s no justifiable, or fair reason to keep the reward system the way it is or WF/TF. I’m glad you enjoy it, but the majority of the player base does not.

[Orctang-area-52 (Orctang)]

@Cbegsdh-bleeding-hollow

Again, I hear no reasons to justify your belief otherwise besides because you want WF/TF to remain. There’s no justifiable, or fair reason to keep the reward system the way it is or WF/TF.

If you think Blizzard is going to remove M+10, you are completely crazy! I don’t need to justify M+10. I have already justified Titanforging earlier in the thread.

@Cbegsdh-bleeding-hollow

the majority of the player base does not.

Let me know when you get some source for this. Otherwise it is just your opinion…

[Cbegsdh-bleeding-hollow (Cbegsdh)]

I didn’t say remove keys. I’m talking about scaling back rewards, but removal of WF/TF or at least scaling back WF/TF so items can only forge up to 10 ILVL greater than the base drop would alleviate this issue.

Edit: in fact if it changed to not forge over 10 ILVL I think the player base would be happy with how WF/TF works.

[Orctang-area-52 (Orctang)]

@Cbegsdh-bleeding-hollow

I didn’t say remove keys. I’m talking about scaling back rewards, but removal of WF/TF or at least scaling back WF/TF so items can only forge up to 10 ILVL greater than the base drop would alleviate this issue.

Since you have provided no real justification for doing this. I don’t see the point to it.

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

Yeah, mastery in a lot of cases isn’t interesting at all. It just boils down to “do more damage with these specific abilities or damage sources (pets)”. It’s basically a thematic versatility damage increase that doesn’t also reduce damage taken.

And while the idea of mastery seems awesome a lot of times (thinking Elemental Overload as an example), the reality is it can’t be too good because of what it does so to ensure it doesn’t become a problem it’s often weaker than other options. In the case of Ele it’s the worst stat for them by design.

I could tangent a lot about class design/balance/itemization/character progression but that’s outside the scope of this discussion. And unfortunately I think a lot of it is too far gone. WoW’s systems are set in place and I don’t see much changing in the formulas they use.

[Cbegsdh-bleeding-hollow (Cbegsdh)]

Per my last response (and pretty much every post I’ve made on this forum): to make reward = difficulty.

I shouldn’t be able to get mythic quality gear from non mythic quality raids. I shouldn’t be able to get M10 quality gear from LFR.

Don’t ask me again, you’re only attempting to antagonize by posting from some lowly alt to hide the fact your a LFR scrublord like everyone else who doesn’t want WF/TF to change.

[Orctang-area-52 (Orctang)]

@Cbegsdh-bleeding-hollow

Don’t ask me again, you’re only attempting to antagonize by posting from some lowly alt to hide the fact your a LFR scrublord like everyone else who doesn’t want WF/TF to change.

LOL! Now you resort to name calling as you can’t justify your opinions.

[Cbegsdh-bleeding-hollow (Cbegsdh)]

Already been explained 50 times over. Scrublord isn’t name calling, it’s a way of life for those who only do LFR.

[Chaaka-stormscale (Chaaka)]

@Avagon-sisters-of-elune

See, that’s an interesting discussion. The only way i see that being feasible is if they drastically up the value (2-3 times) of primary stats and keep the ratio of primary stats the same (or some variation that results in the same outcome, like doubling or tripling the amount of primary stats on an item, but that wouldn’t address rings/trinkets).

If they did something like that, then yes ilvl would be king. But would it be better? Right now I have some choice, some flexibility, about whether I want to use a slightly lower ilvl piece that has, say, leech on it or has haste because I like the way my rotation feels with more haste (whatever the reason) even if it’s a nominal dps loss or because I’m a healer and leech is much more valuable to me than it is for others. It would be easier to gauge an upgrade, sure. But would it be better? My guess is that answer would wildly vary depending upon the player. That basically reduces player agency over gearing by simplifying it. It comes with pros and cons and I don’t think the answer is that straightforward.

I actually agree with you here.

But thats what made reforging a great tool. If an item was clearly an upgrade, but the stats were “meh” you still had some control over it.

[Cbegsdh-bleeding-hollow (Cbegsdh)]

This entire thread basically illustrates the player base and the 2 groups of people either for or against WF/TF.

Those against it are mythic raiders who get little/no reward for mythic raiding due to our gear forging beforehand and feeling as if the gear we get outside mythic is undeserved or mythic raid gear feeling underwhelming in comparison.

Those for it are casual players who just want upgrades any and every way they can get them and have no problem with it since any piece that forges is automatically a MASSIVE (sometimes 50ILVL) upgrade for them.

The easiest way to fix this is to compromise and make warforging bump an items level by 5, and titanforging bumping the item level by 10.

[Sajitarius-sisters-of-elune]

To players of moderate skill levels, a +10 mythic dungeon is pretty easy. It just is not that hard. That both the power and rate of the rewards outpaces pretty much any other stuff to do is weird. Mythic raiding is the only thing that outpaces it, and only if you’re actually a good way in.

I’ve decided I don’t like the dungeons at that difficulty level outpacing the large-group stuff in this game. It messes up the concept of MMO.

This seems to be a general problem with game directions like wow has taken… these different events have grown to be seperate segments of gameplay… PvP, mythic+, raiding, pet battles, world content / questing, and there has been attempts to make each of these have “alternate gearing systems”. If I don’t like raiding, I should be able to get the gear I need for mythic+ from doing mythic+ without the best gear for mythic+ coming from raiding, which I don’t like to do, and so forth… But these levels of gameplay just aren’t the same. It doesn’t help that the level of skill investment in a +10 dungeon, a warfront, a weekly quest, and a heroic raid boss are vastly different in difficulty and time required but give similar rewards.

[Crustyudder-illidan (Crustyudder)]

This was you on it before, i’m assuming it hasn’t changed.

@Avagon-sisters-of-elune

Hey, I’m not opposed to deterministic reward systems. I will agree that everything seems very RNG nowadays. Understand, I’m not opposed to alternative systems or even a revamp of forging to more deterministic systems. I’m opposed to removing progression paths from player B because player A didn’t like that player B was progressing too much or because player A didn’t like the progression path player B was using. And I’m talking more about things like Emissary quests, world bosses, warfront rewards, invasion gear, and then forging on top. The water has gotten muddied this far in and all of these things have come up here.

Regardless, this is a kicker.

@Avagon-sisters-of-elune

You aren’t actually interested in a discussion.

Because you’re describing yourself bud. You derailed the discussion around the power of sockets this morning. This all started because this is was your response to the impacts of a socket, if you can explain how this is intended to foster a discussion that’d be cool. But as far as I can tell this is just dismissive.

@Avagon-sisters-of-elune

Entirely meaningless because the guy complained about items forging to the ilvl of the tier above of which he has none that forged that way.

Guy said → I get items that are more powerful than base ilvl mythic. Proposed solution: Cap ilvl.
Someone said → You have no titanforge.
I said → In terms of relative power he does and realistically that’s caused by sockets.
You said → Irrelevant, he said ilvl is the fix therefore this has no purpose.

That’s not a discussion mate.

[Chaaka-stormscale (Chaaka)]

@Cbegsdh-bleeding-hollow

The easiest way to fix this is to compromise and make warforging bump an items level by 5, and titanforging bumping the item level by 10.

And get sockets out of the wf/tf pool of rollable bonuses.

[Paeldryth-hyjal (Paeldryth)]

@Cbegsdh-bleeding-hollow

This entire thread basically illustrates the player base and the 2 groups of people either for or against WF/TF.

Those against it are mythic raiders who get little/no reward for mythic raiding due to our gear forging beforehand and feeling as if the gear we get outside mythic is undeserved or mythic raid gear feeling underwhelming in comparison.

Those for it are casual players who just want upgrades any and every way they can get them and have no problem with it since any piece that forges is automatically a MASSIVE (sometimes 50ILVL) upgrade for them.

You haven’t read the thread at all if you think it boils down to these 2 groups for these reasons.

Don’t presume to speak for all Mythic raiders.

[Cbegsdh-bleeding-hollow (Cbegsdh)]

What’s your reasoning then?

Yes sockets/tertiary stats should be considered when making the adjustment as well. If an item warforges it can be +5ILVL OR have a socket. If it titanforges it can have +5 ILVL and socket but it can’t forge to +10. There definitely need to be a line in the sand.

[Orctang-area-52 (Orctang)]

@Cbegsdh-bleeding-hollow

This entire thread basically illustrates the player base and the 2 groups of people either for or against WF/TF.

Those against it are mythic raiders who get little/no reward for mythic raiding due to our gear forging beforehand and feeling as if the gear we get outside mythic is undeserved or mythic raid gear feeling underwhelming in comparison.

Those for it are casual players who just want upgrades any and every way they can get them and have no problem with it since any piece that forges is automatically a MASSIVE (sometimes 50ILVL) upgrade for them.

Obviously, you can’t or haven’t read the thread. Go watch some more streamers!

[Cbegsdh-bleeding-hollow (Cbegsdh)]

You’re right, I didn’t read every single post because I have a job and life outside the game too, but I did have a slow day at work hence the discussion.

I’d love for you to summarize it though.