Okay, this was excellent. This is how I feel 100% thank you for articulating what I was thinking.
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I am not bashing guilds. and NO this isnât just a Guild Based game. There is such a Game called Guild WarsâŚNo one ever said this was a Community based game. It use to be when our realms had forums of there own. Cross Realms stopped that. You get over the changes and move on. If this was just a Community based game why is it there are so many opportunities for Solo playing? Why would Blizzard invest in so much graphic work, animations of NPCâs over all atmospheric incentives to visit other areas?? I truly believe you are wishful thinking.
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we have mcdonald monopoly, idk about that. It attracts alot people to buy from them. i would pick a better example.
âStill here because Iâm a hamster chasing an artificial carrot on a stick where my relative power always stays the same versus relevant recent content and I would have flatlined long ago when my skill rightfully dictated it, lost motivation, and quit, instead of gotten better and done harder things!â
None of this is anticipation. Guild community and life, and what made guilds what they are (which is structure) was literally tossed away. Thatâs not anticipation. The raiding content is still the best content in this game, but it was arbitrarily elongated for no reason other than wanting to extend the life cycle, which failed anyway because guilds like world first pushers got around it entirely.
Youâre mislabeling a screw up with âanticipationâ and somehow thinking itâs okay for Blizz to simply not give a damn. Thatâs impossible. Blizz should seek to make all forms of content as good as possible.
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I believe you log into a different game than I every day. Or at least a very very lonely one.
Massively multiplayer is because you are meant to play with others, it makes no sense to make a huge game with millions of players then expect them to not really interact.
This 100% a community based game, you are fooling yourself if you think it isnât. Guilds are very fundamental way people come together and play as a unit, have a feeling of family or belonging. You donât see how absurd it is to alienate that?
The NPC and animation is because this game is meant to be immersive that is the whole RPG element of the game. Do you know who their story telling and rich atmospheres benefit the most? RPers and they have guilds and form some of the tightest knit communities I have ever met.
I donât know who hurt you, but you should consider playing with others.
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This person gets it.
Reasons I dislike wf/tf system:
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Loot is no longer exciting. I used to be happy when the weapon or trinket I was going for finally dropped. Now if it drops with 0 upgrade proc it just feels awful, like you got the worst version of the item possible.
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When 3 of the same items drop and you get the base ilvl, while the other 2 procced 10-20 lvls higher. You did the same boss and put in the same effort for a worse reward.
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Items used to be memorable. Ashkandi, Illidan Shield, Deathbringerâs Will, etc. Now if feels like you could just remove item names and show ilvl only and nobody would notice.
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No, I liked the model we had before BFA. If you enjoyed raiding you raid and get the gear and challenge you wanted. If you enjoyed mythic plus you did that got the gear and challenge you wanted. If you loved pvp you should be able to get the gear and challenge you want. Now it seems based on what you have said is that the developers want us to do all aspects of the game in order to get gear and the challenge we have sought. You can no longer focus on things that appeal to you, now you have to jump in all things for the satisfaction you used to get.
I would not be jealous if I saw a mythic plus player with better gear if they were pushing plus 20 mythics. I would not be jealous of PvP people getting cool mounts and weapons. However people want to play and approach the game they should be allowed to do. You guys build the content which is great, but take out the idea of forcing us to have to dabble in all of it because you created it. Its like my Mom telling me when I was a kid to eat everything on my plate cause she worked hard to make it. WoW is game you should let people choose what they want to do and not be punished making that choice.
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Yes, hands down. No solo player should have access to high end item levels regardless of how many hours they put into the game. The same way a player who only does Normal shouldnât have access to item levels that drop from Heroic or how Heroic raiders shouldnât have access to item levels available from Mythic.
If Iâm investing 300 wipes on a boss like Mythic Gâhuun, over multiple raid nights, multiple raid weeks, someone who hasnât stepped into Mythic shouldnât have access to not only the item level he drops, but the exact gear he drops. Gâhuun is a poor example however because his gear was pretty terrible all around, but the point goes for any tier from Legion or BFA.
That said Titanforging is still used as an invalidation to high end play and it makes players more content instead of making players strive to get better. When I started this game over a decade ago, I got into raiding because I wanted to not only look cool, but I wanted to feel strong. I wanted to have the best gear, I wanted to earn the best gear, and I wanted to be looked up to as a good player because I had said gear. Over the years my perception has changed, I still raid high end, I want the reward and I want to feel strong, however my efforts often feel invalidated because Iâll get on my alt, who got a normal titanforged socket 420 off the second boss in DazarâAlor and a 425 Ring from M+. And itâs not just my alts that make my main feel invalidated, but also the other players walking around who put in very minimal effort doing 1 or 2 keys a week, only do LFR, ect and I see them with better gear than my main that I invest hours into every single day outside of 12 hours a week of organized raiding.
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Kind of yeah. IGNORING what everyone else is getting - I donât care about what they have⌠On my main, I cleared Uldir heroic many times. I killed just a couple mythic bosses. Once the BOD patch came out, Iâve replaced a lot of my gear through WORLD QUESTS. Not even the next raid on Normal. Iâve already picked up two TF items and two WF items.
I miss being done with at least some part of the game, but now Iâm still logging in to see if the world quests give armor. It shouldnât be giving me multiple items of Normal-Mythic (depending on WF) raid gear every week. We usually like to raid Normal for a bit, but the open world was so overrewarding, there was zero point.
You may think âgood - that keeps you playing the gameâ. Thing is, it is making me NOT want to play the game. I was happy pursuing BIS gear then switching to an alt during good content or just raid logging during bad. Rather than doing things I really want to do in game, thereâs too many upgrade opportunities to pass up doing stuff thatâs rather dull.
Or look at it this way⌠should I be able to get 3(ish) Normal item level pieces in a week with 20 MINUTES of time when on average I would get 1-2 items in an organized raid with 6 HOURS of time??
In the end, BiS used to be a great goal to have before too many overrewarding systems showed up as well as WF/TF. Also, in the past, doing things that required more organization and effort/skill meant rewards that reflected that. I donât remember anyone having an issue with it either.
(please note that at NO POINT am I talking about what other people are getting and wanting to be a special snowflake. Thatâs a common straw man used to discredit people who donât like WF/TF and overrewarding gear that I wanted to nip in the bud)
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Being a Lone Wolf player does not mean I missing out on anything. The only thing that has hurt me over and over is being in a group and seeing people yelled at or demeaned for something they did not understand or do while fighting a boss. Yes this happened in LFR. There was a time my partner and i had a raid running guild. It became to much for our liking. Sometimes you might want to think of the ages of the players and how much they are willing to indulge into playing or running a small or large unified conglomerate ⌠We decided soloing was a better fit. itâs not like you are completely cut off from experiencing helping or inter acting with other people. Itâs how much you want to invest you individual time to do so. I am never lonely or I would have quit years ago. Individual progress and the rewards it now gives have now since improved. Which has given greater incentive to keep playing. Lonely has nothing to do with the experience WoW has to offer.
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I feel like I should re-sub to play with you. No one should be lonely in a MMORPG.
I honestly feel that perhaps this is the reason WoW feels so mediocre now. Instead of focusing on a couple types of gamers, making an amazing game for them; Blizzard is trying to make an amazing game for everyone and the result is a mediocre experience for many people.
Just my opinion.
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This comment has some merit.
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This is very true. Paraphrasing an old quote from âŚ?.. âThe one way to make sure that nobody is happy is to try to make everyone happyâ
What irks me most about TF (I donât mind WF, I think WF was a good system that has gotten a bit out of control) is that outgearing content you havenât done yet is a very possible thing. What I enjoy doing in the game is progressing in raids, and it feels kind of bad to go into something that should be a gear curve that isnât. Warforging only goes up to 10ilvl, and since each jump is 15ilvl everything feels fine. You can still get that upgrade from a farm boss. You can still get that extra push of gear to clear this content. What I donât like is having a guild who did 1 Mythic boss in Uldir, so mostly our gear would be 370 base, go into BoD with an average ilvl of 388. The removal of masterloot also means that I can get some titanforged item that I canât or donât want to use, but I canât give it away to my friend who really wants the item. I get that we could just not do content so we donât get overgeared for the raid going into the next tier- but I think that âdonât do contentâ is a bad solution for this problem. I am happy that the TF cap is stuck at 5 below the next level of Heroic, at least we canât outgear Heroic before it comes out, but still being able to outgear Normal BoD when you arenât clearing Mythic Uldir feels like a problem. Mythic raiders SHOULD outgear Normal of the next raid- that content isnât for them, even if they didnât outgear it they would steamroll it, so Iâm fine with the gear jump there. I just feel that it hurts progression, at least for me, when we can walk into a raid that we havenât done yet, tuned for an ilvl that we havenât done content for, and the only upgrade is new trinkets and azerite gear that have an extra ring of traits on them.
I feel that since weâre talking about TF and the randomness of gear we should also talk about other random bonuses on gear that create additional power swings, specifically gem slots. Now this might be my Jewelcrafter bias, but I miss when gem slots were given on a piece of loot. I realize it got insane at the end of MoP when every peice would have 2 or 3 sockets on them, but the rarity of gem slots and randomness has hurt gearing. The rarity means that gems need to be very powerful or else they arenât worth bothering with. A +40 crit gem for me is worth roughly 20ilvl. Which means I can get a Mythic item that is less powerful than the same Heroic item with a socket- but I canât trade that item even though it isnât an upgrade, because the ilvl is too high.
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I just hate not having BiS, per difficulty I raid at. So if Heroic is my cap than Heroic gear is my BiS. I actually like the feeling of being effectively done on a character for whatever Raid Tier we are in. When a raid gets completed essentially you lose the goals and that was my goal. Now it is just play for the sake of playing and frankly something like that loses its appeal to me after a few runs.
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Hi Bornakk, thanks for taking the time to engage in this discussion. I am a guild master of a guild that has been doing AOTC/low level mythic since the end of MoP. We raid 4.5 hours per week, and this is the main (but not exclusive) activity my members enjoy.
To answer your question: yes, I do feel that the 4 hour raider should eclipse the 20 hour person who does world quests/warfront/low level keys. The problem I have without warforge/titanforge is not the âraid reclear scenarioâ that Blizzard reps have often brought up - I think that is fine. I didnât think warforge was a problem in WoD or MoP. Rather, the problem is that by dumping hours into âeasyâ content you can essentially circumvent the gameplay experience you should be having because you are cheesing your way to powerful gear. Let me illustrate the gameplay experience we want to have:
While working through heroic, we would like to be at an appropriate gear level for bosses to be challenging. Week over week boss kills should give us the gear to overcome greater and greater challenges, and by the end the gear weâve earned and are using should be a reflection of the previous challenges weâve overcome - the mightiest loot should should be from the mightiest dragons slain, to describe the fantasy, and building up to that should be journey worth remembering.
Moving up the ranks of M+ or PvP is similar. Gearing is part of that story
However, this is not how it currently works in practice. Many of our members can simply spam 7-9 M+ (which is lower than they should be doing) or participate in a wide variety of other gearing sources (darkshore, warfront, against overwhelming odds) and while any one of these may be low odds to warforge or socket, gear is so widespread that many of our raiders quickly eclipse much of the gearing process in heroic raiding. This degrades the experience of raiding and unbalances the difficulty curve.
So in summary, my problem with all this is not that some other random person happened to get lucky. Rather, it is that you have given players a way to cheese their way to power by simply playing a lot of easy content, getting showered in loot, which in turn circumvents the gaming experience we are looking to have.
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I donât mind that you try to cover a wide range of playstyles, but letâs get one thing clear:
Being bad at the game and lacking skill to do hard things is not a play style.
At the very least, if youâre going to reward all of these playstyles, make them all equally difficult for the rewards they give.
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