Titanforging and Warforging make me upset

[Kannil-kilrogg (Kannil)]

sorry for inconvenience ,I am tired right now. I do enjoy the discussion.

[Akaidian-earthen-ring (Akaidian)]

I’m not looking for more ways to extend content rewards and character progression. I’m looking for ways to, at least, maintain the current pace of big stuff every 2-3 months. We don’t need less content with more things trying to convince us to stay here longer. We need more actual content that makes us want to play regardless of rewards.

I really enjoyed the stepped pyramid design wow had before, which is what most MMOs had before as well. The genre didn’t die because people grew tired of that model, so you’ll have a hard time convincing me this change was necessary at all.

[Nubarito-azralon]

Well I am not trying to convince you of it O.o
I am telling you that I agree that it should go back to being what it was before.

[Akaidian-earthen-ring (Akaidian)]

Then why were you coming down on me for berating WF/TF as a low-brow way to keep people interested because it feeds the addiction and idiocracy that is the gear treadmill? Like sprinkles on top of non-existent ice cream?

[Nubarito-azralon]

Because it never worked. Nobody enjoyed it, even the most gambling addicted people don’t think it makes sense. There isn’t a single way you can see WF/TF as “not the worst thing thats ever happened to the game” - because it is.

if you compare wow NOW to wow “back then” (tbc, wotlk, I didnt play classic though so I cant speak for it), you have:

• better graphics
• better optimization
• more time to mature the game
• MUCH worse design

How can a game get worse? how can a game get THIS WORSE?

[Ozzyprime-kiljaeden]

We lost Ythisens for you.

[Orctang-area-52 (Orctang)]

There isn’t a single way you can see WF/TF as “not the worst thing thats ever happened to the game” - because it is.

You can’t show me a single way it is the worst thing that has ever happened in game. In fact, from what I have seen it has been beneficial for the game.

[Celyda-stormrage]

Majority of players left in this game are MMORPG players IMO and they will never, never accept warforge/titanforge system.

this is absolutely correct.

How is any of that correct? You both may share a opinion but that in no way, shape, or form makes it correct. It sure as hell isn’t absolute! None of you have even asked a majority of players. You are making assumptions based on what you want.

[Fyn-auchindoun (Fyn)]

I’ve gotten plenty of wf gear. It doesn’t feel great. It’s a oh… that’s cool. WF and TF don’t feel like they bring much to the game except making it so I can out gear fights faster.

I miss when gear was gear. I miss when gear had sockets by default. When I got my BIS I got a sense of relief that I had the piece I wanted for that difficulty and If I wanted more I had to get better and do harder content.

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

And you’re trying to pretend it’s less complicated than it is or that everyone fits in generic buckets. They don’t.

Titanforging as a system of pure luck doesn’t provide an incentive for continual gameplay. It’s different from the skinners box because nothing you do has any input on the outcome.

This is just objectively wrong. We see in this very thread dozens of examples of people claiming they feel compelled to fish for forges and don’t like it. Very clearly it’s a motivating factor for people. And the developers have told us that’s why they put it in in the first place.

It accelerates the rate that you reach a point where you’re gear capped. If you only have upgrades remaining from the hope of titanforging, then to reiterate the point above you have a purely luck based system of upgrading where no input from you determines the outcome.

Does it? In a world where all that mattered would be ilvl then sure, forging itself could get you to a point where the content you choose to access doesn’t contain base ilvl upgrades without forging. But we know ilvl isn’t the only important factor of gear. It’s also the stat allocation. If I were to complain about forging it’s that I often get gear that forges that doesn’t have my desired stats. And while the forging makes it better, the gameplay suffers because (using an easy example) I’m not stacking haste to the levels that I should be which directly correlates to how my casters play.

Intensity of emotional reactions is directly related to effort in. That’s why nerd screams from boss kills exist. That challenge only happens once though, so what maintains that strong emotional engagement is loot and character growth, therefore gear upgrading as a system isn’t a bad thing, but the way titanforging is implemented currently is because of all the other problems described above.

So everyone nerd screams when they get boss kills? No? You mean people are different and don’t react exactly the same? Like I’ve been saying!

Again, very clearly there are different reactions to forging. Some people get salty when other people get a forge. Some people get salty when they get something to forge from easy content. Some people don’t care at all. Some people are excited to get a forge. And a lot of people don’t care at all that you got something to forge. It depends on the person.

[Khale-windrunner]

It’s cool on one hand to have something WF or TF, but on the same hand it makes me feel like I never truly achieve a ‘geared’ state. Where I have to keep running content to hope the same item gets a random boost. I’d rather M+ or raids drop a consistent set ilvl. There used to be satisfaction to getting a drop and knowing I’m going to hang onto that slot for awhile.

Now I feel like everything is always upgradeable and find myself doing repetitive content with lower ilvl upgrades in the hope that a piece might RNG WF/TF. This isn’t satisfying to me. I’d much rather be rewarded with straight up WF/TF tokens that I can redeem to reinforce a piece and make it WF/TF by choice.

That gear grind/hunt isn’t fun or satisfactory. I miss the days of a drop being exactly what it is/will always be. I miss getting things such as ‘badges’ in repetitive content so I can still feel like I’ve accomplished/acquired something that will help me towards a larger goal. I miss feeling like I have less of a choice in gearing

[Bouncymango-burning-legion]

The enjoyment you feel is nothing more than the the gambling addiction equivalent of “winning it big”. Warforging and Titanforging is just a lootbox system. Nothing more, nothing less. You get the gear from the content you do and that’s all that is needed. There are 4 difficulty tiers in raids and and infinite amount for Mythic+ theoretically, WF and TF shouldn’t be necessary at all.

TF and WF create a situation similar to someone being hungry and eating, but then never being full.

[Azreluna-mannoroth (Azreluna)]

Titanforging as a system of pure luck doesn’t provide an incentive for continual gameplay. It’s different from the skinners box because nothing you do has any input on the outcome.

In a classic Skinner’s box, you have to push the lever to get the food pellet. In a variable reward version, you have to push the level to maybe get the food pellet.

But you still have to push the lever. Even if most of the time, you’re not getting that food pellet, you still have to push the lever.

We’re tired of levers.

[Orctang-area-52 (Orctang)]

We’re tired of levers.

Then don’t push the lever. I know it’s overly simple.

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

Some people haven’t figured out that there are points where it’s okay to say, “nah, I don’t wanna push that lever today, the odds of getting something good aren’t worth my time.”

In a classic Skinner’s box, you have to push the lever to get the food pellet. In a variable reward version, you have to push the level to maybe get the food pellet.

But you still have to push the lever. Even if most of the time, you’re not getting that food pellet, you still have to push the lever.

We’re tired of levers.

Funny thing though, you just described most of the loot in this game. Every single time you kill a boss. Every single time you complete a M+. That’s not describing forging. If you’re tired of that model you might wanna walk away from the machine then.

[Orctang-area-52 (Orctang)]

I agree more of the problems I see listed about Titanforging come from a lack of self control.

I must keep hitting the lever to get my “BiS” 425 Titanforged for every gear slot!!!

[Azreluna-mannoroth (Azreluna)]

Some people haven’t figured out that there are points where it’s okay to say, “nah, I don’t wanna push that lever today, the odds of getting something good aren’t worth my time.”

In a classic Skinner’s box, you have to push the lever to get the food pellet. In a variable reward version, you have to push the level to maybe get the food pellet.

But you still have to push the lever. Even if most of the time, you’re not getting that food pellet, you still have to push the lever.

We’re tired of levers.

Funny thing though, you just described most of the loot in this game. Every single time you kill a boss. Every single time you complete a M+. That’s not describing forging. If you’re tired of that model you might wanna walk away from the machine then.

Let me clarify.

I’m okay with 2 levers: high level M+ and raiding.
I don’t want 8.

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

This is where it gets interesting. Why?

If you don’t want 8, don’t use 8. Use the 2 you’re okay with. Maybe those other 6 aren’t there for you. Maybe they’re there for different types of players. So don’t use them.

[Azreluna-mannoroth (Azreluna)]

I agree more of the problems I see listed about Titanforging come from a lack of self control.

I must keep hitting the lever to get my “BiS” 425 Titanforged for every gear slot!!!

It’s really easy to just blame the player, isn’t it? “Hey, be smarter than the game!”

But that’s only half of it. The other half is when you’re facing a boss you haven’t defeated yet, and even if something drops, you know your reward is likely to be nothing, because you already have gear that’s as good as the base level drop, and of course, the odds of it warforging or titanforging are pretty low.

That’s the other side of the coin. Doing challenging content you haven’t finished yet and outgearing the reward already.

[Mirzim-thrall]

Avagon, why do you have this much of an axe to grind with people who don’t like titanforging?

Even the CM said he wants to hear people talk about their own play experiences rather than argue about who is right/wrong. You respond to nearly every person who posts about negative TF experiences to tell them how they’re wrong, until the entire thread derails into people arguing back and forth with you for hours. You have more than twice as many posts in this thread as the next most frequent poster (you’re at ~250 in a ~2.4k thread…i.e. one in ten posts are yours. Seriously.)

If you have positive experiences with TF then go ahead and talk about them, but you don’t have some duty to personally contradict, ad nauseum, every player who doesn’t.