Titanforging and Warforging make me upset

My damage has increased nearly 2 fold, and I at most have access to 3rd rings with my lvl 34 neck. I do admit encounter design might play a part, and new traits also help with that, but suffice to say if AP level req’s keep going up for ring unlocks, I will never enjoy that benefit, because I’ll always be behind that curve. Forget doing island, daily quests, etc.

I’d be fine with MOP model, but good luck repealing huge lotto winnings for overland players. A lot of them don’t think 5 ilvl is enough. They want the huge forges. They like winning the lottery.

This idea that you should be able to be competitive at raiding without doing anything outside of raiding just doesn’t work in an MMO, and it is NOT how WoW used to be. It also doesn’t work in real world sports.

Imaging me saying I want to be able to compete at the highest levels of basketball by only playing basketball. My competition shouldn’t be allowed to put in time in the weight room, or time focusing on their nutrition, or time working on cardio/endurance. They should only be allowed to play basketball, because that is the only amount of effort I want to put it. - That mindset is completely anti-competitive and sounds, frankly, lazy when voiced about any sport.

In WoW, being competitive in raiding has ALWAYS required time outside of the raid. In Vanilla, it was gathering resistance gear, and was probably the most time consuming outside-of-raid requirement until Legion with AP grinding.

If you want a game with ZERO outside-of-the-main-activity time investment, based purely on skill alone, play CS-GO, League or Overwatch. MMO Raiding competition allows for, and thus rewards, additional time investment.

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You’re missing the point where those are all physical developmental things that ultimately contribute to the SKILL of the individual. Not the wares.

Gear is not skill. Gear is a dumb carrot on a stick to incite reward chemical reactions.

What you’re talking about are two things that are not equal. A false equivalence. The more apt comparison would be some basketball player gets a better basket ball that automatically scores a basket if it gets within 2 yards. We’re talking MECHANICAL advantages, not skillful ones. Video games don’t have physicality. Their only merit is skill.

Also, to be competitive in PVP and raids during wrath, it required no outside activity beyond doing either of those respective things. At basically all points in the history of wow, additional time investment outside of the game did not give you gear better than an activity that was harder. It didn’t even have a CHANCE to do that. Flat out would never happen.

I refuse to believe this was a bad model that needed to be changed to modern garbage, or that this modern loot system is “how MMOs ought to be.”

When the titanforging and bonus stats first came out, I have always been excited about building my “speed set” which would have bonus stat speed on each piece of gear. Unfortunately, that has never happened b/c I don’t keep lower ilvl gear since I raid and pvp which gear seems to matter. Maybe one day I’ll have a “speed” set of gear with speed on every piece.

Please stop with the hyperbole, I went from 16k single target to 23k. not anywhere close to double

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I went from 12 to 23. Even then, a 43% increase in damage from a 3% increase in ilvl is still more than enough to be concerned with the potential of 5 ilvl. It’s definitively not meaningless or negligible. It would easily provide someone who is a blue parser enough power to, instead, become a purple parser, maybe even an orange, when their skill otherwise would place them perfectly in blue.

ilvl increases are all relative. “But omgz 4 ilvls is a lot!” A lot in comparison to what? I like how people pretend that an ~4 increase in ilvl due to forging is significant when we have tier increases that are more than 7 times that value. Listen, if you all want to lie to yourself and everyone else complaining about insignificant increase in ilvl in comparison to other staple ilvl increases be my guest. But we go up 30 ilvl from normal of Uldir to normal of BD. 30. You’re complaining about 4 as if it’s meaningful in that discussion. It’s hilarious. It’s not and anyone complaining about it very clearly fails basic mathematics. Repeating a ridiculous claim over and over doesn’t make it true. “But I swear it does matter!” lol

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You seem to be under the impression that 1000dps is insignificant. I’m here to tell you 1000 dps is definitely NOT insignificant as far as logs or rankings are concerned. When discussing things like the top performers in, say, a drag race, tenths of a second… the most MINUTE differences… matter.

many factors involved you died in first kill of champions and also your overall kill time went way down

You’re misunderstanding when I use that comparison. I’m talking 3 min target dummy parse and/or sims.

You’re also the guy that fails to understand that in every rpg ever, in fact it’s what makes them rpgs, level and items are the primary things that determine performance, not skill, which means it’s not surprising that you fail to comprehend how ilvl scaling is all relative. That the ~3-5 we get from gear is far eclipsed by the raw ilvl of the gear we’re upgrading to from tier to tier. And it’s not like that new gear has a lower chance of forging to boot. Makes me laugh a lot.

Good for you and your predefined tropes about gear. Know what else makes an RPG an RPG by my surmise? Moving on past something and never doing it again once you’ve beaten it. Beat the boss, onto the next. Out-date the old content and never need to return.

Wow used to work like a typical RPG. They just found a way to make scrubs happy and felt they needed to cater because they messed up and bled players when they had a YEAR LONG content drought with no new raid.

If you reorder the last two numbers… it is EXACTLY double. BOOM!!! :smiley:

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Show me a single mmo where it ever worked the way you claim. Bosses have been farmed since the days of the earliest ones, UO and EQ. That’s kinda the difference between you and me. I talk about reality in context of the actual discussion we’re having. You’re dishonest to try to score argument points on technical wins. So yes, you’re right, in a context that’s completely irrelevant to the discussion we’re actually having bosses weren’t farmed in tabletop or console rpg’s. Good thing that’s what we’re talking about…oh…wait…lol And side note, WoW never worked that way. Another lie. Shocker.

You said RPG, not MMO. And remind me where, just because it’s how things work, have worked, or might never have worked before, that means it can’t possibly work one way or another at some point in the future.

The point is: stop arguing like your thoughts have any more merit than someone elses.

Accept the opinions of others as being different and move on, or continue to argue. Just don’t argue badly.

I don’t mind farming current content. In WOTLK, all you ever had to do to get BIS was raidlog once we got into the first tier. You never had to do dungeons again if you desired. You would always have enough gold to buy materials or consumables needed. But, I did not have to go back and do out-dated or easier garbage content I had outgrown.

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Yes I talked about RPG’s in general. Because you pretend that RPG’s ever, anywhere were skill based over gear/level based. Which is a lie. And when I point that out, you then shift the goalpost to something that wasn’t ever true about mmo’s, the type of RPG we’re playing. And you try to pretend that WoW used to be that way. Which is just blatantly dishonest. WoW was never a game where you killed the boss once and moved on. Hell, you’re objectively wrong if we disregard your goalpost shifting deflection.

I’m not disputing your opinion. You’re entirely within your right to have your opinion. It doesn’t mean WoW should cater to your opinion in any way shape or form. Or that I should consider your opinion equally. That’s what anti-vaxxers or flat Earthers say. “My opinion is equal to your opinion!” No, no it’s not. Even then, I’m not disputing your opinion. Believe whatever delusional thing you want. I’m disputing your objectively wrong claims that you use to support your opinion. Like your claim above. Like your claim that skill was ever the biggest factor of performance. Like your claim that you used to be able to just log in to raid and you would perform better than people who put in more time (your words “no lyfers”) but were, according to you, less skilled. I could go on but there’s not really any need.

“Higher Skill than most players…” what exactly do you mean by that?

Again, where is the wrong claim that the current raid tier in wrath was all you needed to do to effectively remove gear from the equation?

Also, there’s a difference between truly opinionated topics, which is what I’m concerned with here, and less the history or factual state of the game currently or as it has been.

My point is and was that I want the game to effectively be league/cs-go, whatever and not further down the “time means power, not ability” hole that we’ve gone.

Even if it was never perfectly what I wanted, it was far closer in the past than it is right now.

I couldn’t have possibly said anything that made your position seem more foolish than that statement so I’ll just quote it and leave it here for people to see. It boggles my mind that you could explicitly state you want the game to effectively be league/cs-go. I wish I could picard facepalm right now.

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