Titanforging and Warforging make me upset

[Sifu-bleeding-hollow (Sifu)]

Way back in the day when Alterac Valley BG lasted for HOURS…There were people in there AFKing for the rep. This is nothing new just a lame way mind set. I recall many fishing in the pond which no longer exists, and or running against buildings, and hiding out in the Harpy Cave.

So you’re using a BAD GAME DESIGN element from the past to defend a BAD GAME DESIGN element from the present?

Nice logic.

How about we fix the BAD GAME DESIGN instead of making bad excuses for them?

[Wilanór-fizzcrank (Wilanór)]

I am presenting to you a different view. One that most won’t agree with but is still the truth.

People say Mythic + and Mythic raids are the hardest to do. I say that’s not true.

You want to know whats harder to do ?

Questing.
Grinding quests all day every day…

If all you do is Mythic + you probably won’t get flying until you complain about it AFTER the people that have grinded for a long time doing quests. This has happened the last two expansions. And THAT ticks me off.

I grind my butt off for months to get flying ( see Titanforged gear ) only to have the requirements lowered because the people that do Mythic + content don’t bother to do the daily grind.

You feel let down because you do Mythic + ?

Well my friend I feel let down when blizzard lowers requirements for flying just to please a few people that cry because they didnt go out and do that grinding.

So I say the constant daily grind to get things like flying ( titanforged gear ) is just as hard as Mythic + content.
It’s all very relative.

[Shadina-gorefiend (Shadina)]

Titanforging and Warforging go against the MMO ground rules for me. It used to be that fulfillment was attained through dedication of time, and connections were forged through the community you chose to involve yourself in which would then in turn also grant recognition for what you did and how you did it.

TF / WF, personal loot, and the pure abandonment of guild life from Blizz has all but destroyed these pillars, and we’ve traded fulfillment and social networking, along with tools for these environments like master looter for lottery RNG WF / TF nonsense.

[Bornakk]

Let’s be clear here that “zero effort” isn’t literally zero effort. It’s shorthand for an amount of effort so minimal as to be trivial.

I see what you are saying about the “zero effort”, but in a related conversation, if you are doing all of the sources of gear it does take time and a commitment. Do you feel that if someone is doing an organized raid for 4ish hours a week they should without question be a higher item level than someone who doesn’t raid but likes to do a variety of different things - often by themself - but plays for 20ish hours a week?

Loot feels earned when your fellow players give it to you.

How does it feel if you get passed over on receiving the same item multiple times in a row?

In your opinion, should mythic plus and organized raiding be the only sources of loot and everything else gives some flatline blue gear?

[Fishs-malganis]

I feel like the guy who wrote it once before put it best. You and one other go to McDonalds and both pay 5 bucks for some nuggets but the guy after you get it McTitian forged to and entire meal with extra dipping sauce. Yea, you are going to be annoyed that you got just nuggets like a fool. I thought warforged orginally was a neat idea its when it flipped into Titan forging that is got out of balance. Its one thing getting a lucky small advantage but when you can skip whole difficulties that its just stupid.
I find it really upsetting to see a community manager just ignore everyone elses perspective.
When I am on my alt where I don’t put in time effort I don’t mind the titan forging. However when I am on my main trying to push my spot into a raid I am furious that I can do double the effort of others and be held back because the dice rolls were unkind. How can you not see how that would feel to your player base.
Higher raiding guilds don’t care if you “tried hard” they want results not RNG excuses.

[Zyanya-ghostlands]

It was just an observation. Not a nay or nod. It happened that is all.

[Eret-hyjal (Eret)]

In your opinion, should mythic plus and organized raiding be the only sources of loot and everything else gives some flatline blue gear?

Minus mythic plus WoD had a very linear gear system with LFR being heavily nerfed gearwise (no trinkets or unique looks)

It did not get people to raid
It caused people to kick casuals because it made things “slower”

The fact some people get lucky irks some… The casuals will never be at the power level of a mythic raider.

[Kittredge-azjolnerub (Kittredge)]

I tend to agree, it feels good when it happens. I personally don’t have an issue with the system.

There are flaws in the system, but I don’t think it’s nearly as bad as people say it is.

[Sifu-bleeding-hollow (Sifu)]

How does it feel if you get passed over on receiving the same item multiple times in a row?

In your opinion, should mythic plus and organized raiding be the only sources of loot and everything else gives some flatline blue gear?

It feels like you are playing an MMO and have the choice to pursue other guilds that better fit your skill level or play style if you aren’t content with your own.

I think blue gear is pretty much worthless in this state of WoW. There is no point of having green or blue quality gear since they are both relegated to either transmog or scrap/vendor gear. I would be for making blue level gear more relevant.

[Doopeh-bleeding-hollow]

If they’re doing easier, lower level content for 20 hours a week? Yes.

That guy who levels off just herbalism and mining every expansion doesn’t expect max level gear even though time-wise, he probably has us all beaten.

[Azreluna-mannoroth (Azreluna)]

If you see the master loot system as a form of lottery, you have clearly never been in a decent (let alone good) raiding guild… which is obvious from your armory.

Oh no the dreaded your armory sucks so you suck argument. I haven’t raided in a guild since firelands. It doesn’t mean I don’t understand the game and things. Its clear that all your vaulted experience hasn’t taught you that valuable lesson.

Master looter is still a form of lottery. The tickets are just bought with a different currency. Showing up, farming mats, performing well etc. It is all a lottery with the master looter the one in control of how that lottery is distributed.

Master looter isn’t a lottery. It’s a (mostly) deterministic system. That’s pretty much the exact opposite of a lottery. You’re correct that there’s a currency involved; the currency is everything you describe: contributing to the raid and contributing to the guild.

But to claim that that means that master looter is a lottery system is way off base. If I’m buying a house, and I offer $300k, and someone else offers $220k, and a third person offers $5, I think it’s pretty clear who’s getting the house. There’s no luck or chance involved.

[Dalistar-area-52 (Dalistar)]

Correct, in Legion I played similar hours and I was mythic raider and with no issues. I played about 8 to 10 hours per week. Six of the hours were raiding. I was a 100% raider type so I didn’t miss those 2 days. I had limited time to do mythic pluses but I did them when time permitted and world quest as needed to compliment my raiding. I think the biggest issue was the change to master loot in raiding. In Legion I had mythic warforged items and even one titanforged item but that was because of no personal loot. I earned them through performance and attendance now with personal loot I didn’t get any titanforged items and the one warforged item I got was from another player. For me it wasn’t fun for the effort I was putting into raiding on a limited time that I got little reward for it.

Now, are there other avenues to get gear in WoW? Of course, but I feel like before BFA those other avenues were in place not to compliment the gearing process but to give people a different way of getting gear. Lets be honest, all of us want to see our character get stronger become more competitive. Now I know I can no longer gear just through raiding, some world quest and some mythic pluses my way I have played the game is no longer viable. Now you have to invest time in all facets of the game in order to raise your chance of getting the gear. I just never had to play that way before and so I can’t keep up. Not to mention all time sink with grinding rep for races, flying, and everything else I just can’t keep up. Its fine, the game can’t be accessible for everyone like it used to be, its just hard to walk away.

[Waterstrider-sargeras (Waterstrider)]

In your opinion, should mythic plus and organized raiding be the only sources of loot and everything else gives some flatline blue gear?

Giving my own opinion on this, I feel like this should be the case. Higher gear is required for higher difficulty - there is not point in creating high gear for low effort content. Why do that? It creates an illusion for those players.

[Abruek-turalyon (Abruek)]

How does it feel if you get passed over on receiving the same item multiple times in a row?

As an organised raider, it’s immeasurably more satisfying looking at the loot we earned, rather than the single piece I earned. Anyone who’s ever complained about item passovers were either underperforming or plain didn’t deserve it.

Bring back Master Loot.

[Soushi-moon-guard]

I think that’s a bit of an overstatement. With enough luck and playtime, someone who does mythic +10 and caps those rewards and only does heroic raids can obtain a mythic raid ilvl, but its still easier for mythic raiders to get the same ilvl or higher.

A big part is what you consider casual play, is everything aside from mythic raid casual? I think its fine for mythic + to reward similar or same ilvl gear as mythic raiding, but I think you’re hard pressed to find people who are 400+ilvl overall and truly only do casual content (warfront, wq, emissary) of course that depends on your definition of casual content. I don’t consider heroic raids casual content, not that I think they’re difficult, but above what I would consider casual, same as m+)

[anon98294075]

Do you feel that if someone is doing an organized raid for 4ish hours a week they should without question be a higher item level than someone who doesn’t raid but likes to do a variety of different things - often by themself - but plays for 20ish hours a week?

That question seems a bit loaded. Does the player that raids 4 hours a week also play 20 hours a week like the other player?

I mean to me it feels like raiding normal and heroic is kind of pointless unless you are just wanting one extra chance at raid-level gear because it is pretty easy to get that level of gear doing other things. I’m sure that’s the intent, but yeah.

[Demo-archimonde (Demo)]

Getting passed over on loot repeatedly feels fine when you are the most geared person in the raid, and terrible when you are the least geared person in the raid. Sorry but your bait isn’t going to work on guild leaders, raid leaders, etc that were doing loot right.

[Dalistar-area-52 (Dalistar)]

This is pretty much correct. I don’t have time nor do i want to do some of the content you must do in order to raid. Used to be raiding was all you needed and maybe a mythic plus here or there to compliment your raiding. I don’t like Islands at all, I have fallen asleep doing warfronts multiple times and I don’t have time for a hard rep grind anymore. I am a hardcore casual for lack of better word and it just doesn’t work in BFA to be that. While I may not raid 16 hours a week like I used to do I still have that raider mentality which is hard to shake.

[Bornakk]

As an organised raider, it’s immeasurably more satisfying looking at the loot we earned, rather than the single piece I earned. Anyone who’s ever complained about item passovers were either underperforming or plain didn’t deserve it.

Bring back Master Loot.

So in your case, is your concern is more about the loot system and less about WF/TF?

Also, I understand where you are coming from as an organized raider. How much do you feel we should consider the play styles of others when it comes to rewards? We really try to cover a wide range of play styles and how concerned are you with what items those other people have?

[Raicolette-moon-guard (Raicolette)]

Do you feel that if someone is doing an organized raid for 4ish hours a week they should without question be a higher item level than someone who doesn’t raid but likes to do a variety of different things - often by themself - but plays for 20ish hours a week?

If you’re not doing Heroic / Mythic Raiding or high Tier Mythic+, you shouldn’t be geared out, like you are doing said content.