Actually, maybe this is all really only hinting at the real problem.
Many of us are, or were, completionists. We want to do everything in the game. In the past, this was doable. You could max out your gear. You could hit Exalted. You could farm that pet.
Nowadays, not so much. With forging, your gear could almost always be better. Azerite Power doesnât cap. It DOESNâT END AT EXALTED. Pets are thrown into the game faster than any sane person can collect them.
I donât complete anything anymore. I donât finish anything anymore. Thatâs probably why I have one level 120 and half a dozen 110s. I canât finish this character.
But after waiting in the queue in HOTS for 10 minutes I can get a game in.
If you donât like titanforging, great, more power to you. Iâve said that numerous times in this thread. Everyone is entitled to any opinion they want to have.
But this is a discussion thread. It doesnât mean everyone can come in and say whatever they want and no one can ever engage them on the things they say. And if you say something thatâs extremely hyperbolic or flat out objectively false in support of your opinion, do you think people should ignore that? Are we obligated to not point out, âhey, wait, that thing you said isnât trueâ or âthatâs an extreme exaggeration that isnât an honest appraisal of what happens in game.â And I know, you have your opinion and itâs contrary to mine, so youâre not jumping on the people in this thread who are responding similar to me but from the other side of the fence. You should go give your unsolicited advice to them.
I speculate a lot have, because I know I have. Itâs why I rapidly slow down in my M+ participation 2 months into any given tier and borderline stop playing the game - I canât imagine Iâm the only one. If I didnât have a core group of friends to raid with Iâd be inclined to quit because to me the game is all about character progression, and 45 minutes for what feels like a 1% chance of an upgrade is the equivalent of having no more progression. Give me a tangible goal to pursue (instead of hoping for a low proc) to upgrade my gear so I have an incentive to play beyond friends and can continue advance my character. (just dont make it AP please, use something creative within professions or a different game mechanic).
You know, Avagon, both Bornakk and the other posters are probably more interested in why you like titanforging than in having you pick apart their posts. If people are being hyperbolic, try to translate it, like I did for Bornakk in explaining âzero effortâ.
Just be careful when you sound like you are speaking for others. Personally, Iâm more focused on getting my average item level up. Sometimes a good WF/TF makes it so I donât need to worry about a single slot for a while but it doesnât happen much. I mainly have been trying to use titanforges to fill in some slots that I feel unlucky in (hi trinkets!) and that has resulted in such success that I have zero titanforges on my main spec atm, heh.
That is also why I was asking so many questions on this topic to try and understand others, their play style, their interests, etc. There are a very wide variety of opinions and preferences that have come up here and there is a lot to consider.
There are many reasons as to why I dislike TF/WF. It makes gear insignificant to me, and diminishes a sense of progression or accomplishment for me. Thereâs no âYes! I finally got the Titansteel Destroyerâ or âWoot! BiS!â moments anymore. More so I almost feel a bit of guilt because I didnât earn it.
It feels like I got a special participation award on top of just getting loot from the boss. Some people didnât get any loot and I got buffed loot, but we did the same thing. Why not TF/WF the amount of loot a boss drops?
I feel robbed of any meaningful progression and accomplishment because there is no longer a real obtainable BiS. I want to conquer a tier, I want the absolute best gear I can possibly have in each slot, with the best combination of stats. That simply is not obtainable with the current loot structure. I can get a high TF piece with terrible stats and feel OBLIGATED to put it on because technically itâs an upgrade. This feels especially terrible early in a tier because it may be amazing for another player, but I canât trade it.
Gear used to be iconic. I remember strolling around Dalaran and seeing my first Shadowmourne. Everyone knew that player earned it and that was the best they were going to get for that expac. They were decked out in ICC-25H gear, strutting around like an MMO god. That feeling of envy drove me to want to be like that. They werenât given any freebies, they earned every bit of that and it showed. That sense of pride filled me when I started to get to that level, realising all the effort it took to accomplish my feats.
Also it really muddies the waters with ilvl. Players used to know their limits and would either stop at that wall or become better players. Nowadays with the abundance of loot and chance to just flat out out-gear situations, players are overcoming obstacles in the worst way possible. Just blindly zerging without adapting. A player could be invited to raid purely on ilvl and just be terrible because they have never had to progress as a player. They just keeping smashing into situations until their gear carries them. This also raises the gear scaling at an alarming rate as we are already half-way near legion numbers in the middle of the next expac. EDITED: On top of this you have the top players going to lesser content fishing for TF/WF items. That furthers some players getting through content above their ability because they are getting carried, and thus making the barriers to entry that much easier. This is the reason completely uncoordinated pug groups can eventually just zerg down 2-3 bosses on Mythic difficulty because the whole encounter has become completely trivialized by gear.
So my suggestion is to keep the TF/WF system but alter it. Blizzard is correct that it is nice to occasionally get an unexpected prize, but it should not drastically change your path of progression/gearing. Let items TF +10 and WF +5 above their base item levels. However, gear that does not TF/WF can still be upgraded to maxed out TF/WF potential with a currency such as Valor points. This way players are still excited to get a free bonus upgrade, but are still able to min/max in their chosen path.
I do hope you pass along this suggestion to the team. I do not take credit for this suggestion as I have heard it throughout the community and agree with it.
I only jumped on you because your posts make up literally 10% of the thread, and thatâs baffling to me. No one else is even close, whether I agree with them or not. I know Iâm being crappy to make jabs at you personally but Iâm tired of this tread being nothing but âvarious people argue with Avalonâ for huge stretches.
I feel you unduly glossed over probably the most important part of Bouncyâs post; the very last sentence.
âBeing hungry and eating, but then never being full.â
I enjoy feeling wholly fulfilled so I can focus on my favorite aspect without gearing differences being a consideration I have to add as a caveat to that aspect. No permanently fulfilled, but temporarily, much like actual hunger.
Youâre arguing semantics. Lots of people fish for forges. Lots of people have made that point here in this thread. Iâm not arguing over whether something is simply compelling. I was disputing your claim that forging by itself isnât compelling enough to get people to fish for it. Blizzard has stated that forging was implemented for exactly this reason, to provide people some incentive to do content they normally wouldnât do because they on longer have a reason to do it without forging. Weâre multiple expansion into its implementation so if it didnât do what it was intended to do, do you honestly think it would still be here in game?
I have no characters (and I have 10 at 120 right now) that stat weights are even like that across any spec I play. 5 ilvl and sometimes even 10 ilvl difference on non-ring/trinket slots can still result in the lower ilvl piece being the upgrade. Rings/trinkets are different, obviously due to no mainstat on the rings and the special impact of trinkets. Plus you used a socket example which is a cherry picked for the largest impact. My point about ilvl is true regardless of how much you want to pretend itâs not. ilvl is not the indicator as to whether a piece of gear is better or not. Itâs a good general gauge, sure, but anything with 10 ilvl you should probably sim or compare stat weights on.
But the rest is going down an endless hole thatâs a lot of philosophical waffling. Particularly so because your example is context specific and youâre trying to apply that to multiple reward systems broadly. The things that motivate players in a raid are not going to be the things that motivate casual players out in the world. They value and are driven by different things. An explanation canât just be handwaved across every player in the game as if one size fits all. It doesnât.
I do want to say, of course there are conflicting design goals. Not all content is designed for all people and thus those reward systems arenât intended to be the same thing to everyone. We have people upset about reward systems designed for other people because they donât feel other people deserve those rewards (not valid at all) or (and I do see this as a valid complaint) how that reward system conflicts with their own personal motivation. The problem is the solution put forth isnât people accepting that the system is there to serve other people, itâs people demanding (often times from a fallacious position of majority) to have that system removed.
Iâm not certain what response you expect. Without being snarky, seriously, if me posting bothers you ignore me. Iâm not going to change how I post because a stranger on the internet doesnât like that Iâm engaged with the discussion.
I think a lot of the passionate folks that are replying to your post are the same folks wondering where this discussion was when Blizzard decided to remove Master Loot and change the loot system all together. There never was a thousand+ post discussion to get player feedback pre this change. This somewhat angers folks when theyâre now being drilled with questions on why it should come back when it wasnât their (our) choice to get rid of in the first place. Again, there was no constructive discussion before that change.
My guild is the same way, yes weâve adapted but it just doesnât feel as rewarding with personal loot. The feeling of a Raid Leader giving loot out is missing and was a fun aspect of raiding.
The way it is now is âClothie A got a 415 Titanforged with bad stats for their spec but canât trade since their equipped item is 410 so itâs higher and Clothie B in the raid needs it but got gold onlyâ. Weâve never had this issue in the past and it was a great feeling for Clothie B, who contributed just as much during the raid, to receive that item from Clothie A or the Master Looter.
In all honesty, this change seems to be a direct result of big business wanting us to be logged in longer. If we all get geared up by being able to trade items quicker then big business is worried weâll unsub and theyâll lose revenue.
In fact, it seems to be having the reverse effect. People are so frustrated by the change and not getting lucky with personal loot that they decide enough is enough and leave. Iâve lost many raider friends to this and the frustration of not being able to trade higher ilvl than their equipped items to someone that needs them who are still sitting on -20 ilvl items due to bad personal loot luck.
If Blizzard big business is hellbent on leaving Personal loot at least tweak it so that there is a unlucky loot protection like there was on Legion legendaries. Or something of that nature, for each slot, because looting the same boots 5 times and resetting the bad luck protection would be just as bad.
Thatâs one of my main gripes with WF/TF. Youâre hoping for a random bonus that is decent enough to be an upgrade. Running more difficult content should be a viable way to upgrade gear (and it is), but moving up a difficulty tier often isnât possible for players (Why donât more LFR Heroes go into Normal mode? â They donât want to, or simply cannot, usually due to limited time).
Bonuses are fine. Mega Jackpots are silly. A +15 max bonus is rare enough, but also achievable. You can use your own experience and figure out if youâll reach your maximum item level in 4-5 months. +15 also has the benefit of feeling like âHey! thatâs BiS!â where as a 420 TF from a 400 is âHey!, thatâs pretty goodâ BiS feels better.
Hey, Iâm not opposed to deterministic reward systems. I will agree that everything seems very RNG nowadays. Understand, Iâm not opposed to alternative systems or even a revamp of forging to more deterministic systems. Iâm opposed to removing progression paths from player B because player A didnât like that player B was progressing too much or because player A didnât like the progression path player B was using. And Iâm talking more about things like Emissary quests, world bosses, warfront rewards, invasion gear, and then forging on top. The water has gotten muddied this far in and all of these things have come up here.
I really agree with everything youâve said here.
My guild is progressing through heroic at the moment, we are only 6/9. Already Iâm feeling like we kill bosses, I hover over the loot they drop, and much of it is not an upgrade at all, if it is, itâs like 1% or something.
Itâs just not exciting and really takes away from the thrill of downing a new boss.
Itâs telling that I hover over the loot in the dungeon journal as well. Back in the day, I would know exactly what gear I really wanted, and be excited about killing those bosses for the chance.
Now I just donât care, itâs all meaningless and I just rely on an addon to tell me if itâs an upgrade. I far, far, far preferred having a BiS list and the sense of progression and goals met when filling a slot with a highly desired piece, rather than this random, oh yeah, I got a 2% upgrade and my ilevel went up. Even when I get a 15% upgrade from WF/TF, it just feels like random luck, not progression.
For me, TF and WF, cheapen the actual raiding experience. So it makes my hard earned M gear feel bad when I see a LFR 425 piece. It also makes me have to play more with hopes of getting a TF and WF piece, in order for me to stay competitive on my raid team.
There are not more BIS pieces, just RNG for TF/WF that you can get in lfr.
If you canât get rewards from killing a boss that is because you over gear it. This would mean your (guild group or pug group) performance is not good enough to kill it before you over gear it.
This is another area where I find Titanforging good for the game. One of my guilds was not able to kill Heroic Gâhuun until the final week of the raid and it was finally due to over gearing the fight that we were able to down it (yes, we do have several carry members and we accept it for what it is)
Also, some bosses generically donât have any gear you want or need (not because of over gearing) so it is not fun to kill them right?
As an avid PvPer this current iteration of loot is very frustrating.
Some history: I was your typical 3-4 day a week raider all throughout Vanilla-WoTLK with a guild focusing on DKP to distribute loot. It wasnât perfect but it worked, and for the most part everyone put in the work for the pieces they got with that system.
Fast forward to today. I spent the first part of this expansion rejoining a raid guild to clear Normal/Heroic with the plan to progress into Mythic Uldir. The way the loot system was built for the start of BFA it seemed necessary that players who had any serious hope for PvP would need to be farming PvE content. This is largely because PvP had (and still has) very limited ways to get direct upgrades in Season 1.
Now we are currently in Season 2 and despite adding more âoptionsâ on the weekly conquest gear, PvPers are still sub-par to players who PvE yet again. PvP players are time gated by conquest weeklies as the only reliable way to get Azerite Armor, with an RNG chance to pull a piece out of the weekly chest. Compare that to the fact that just about every boss in BoD has a chance to drop Azerite. We are now 5 weeks into the season and PvP players only have 2 pieces of Armor, and if you choose the wrong piece⊠your screwed. We are also limited to the stats the developers have pre-determined to be in our conquest weeklies, otherwise: more RNG
So what does PvE have?
Raid bosses, chance on almost every boss for Azerite Armor and pre-defined stats on offpieces.
Tokens are usable to get a bonus chance on each boss for Azerite Armor
Mythic & Mythic+
Guaranteed Residuum from Mythic+ weekly cache, disenchanting/scrapping.
Island Expedition Maps for bonus Residuum
Bonus chance to get Azerite Armor from Mythic+ cache
World Bosses & World Quests
PvP has:
A 9 week cycle where we get to choose 1 piece for each slot, totaling 3 pieces for over 2 months of work.
RNG chance in the weekly chest
- Bonus rolls with tokens cannot drop Azerite Armor, neither can end of game victory rewards - Zero way to reliably get Residuum to target pieces.
Add titanforging, warforging, and bonus sockets in this PvP Lotto and the problems get even worse. It feels almost impossible to get a full set of stats that you want/need. And PvP players will always be WAY behind anyone who PvE in terms of customization of Azerite Armor.
Personally, Iâm more focused on getting my average item level up. Sometimes a good WF/TF makes it so I donât need to worry about a single slot for a while but it doesnât happen much. I mainly have been trying to use titanforges to fill in some slots that I feel unlucky in (hi trinkets!) and that has resulted in such success that I have zero titanforges on my main spec atm, heh.