Titanforging and Warforging make me upset

That doesn’t make any sense. At all. If you’re the boss of a business, you have the right to determine how much people get paid… and if people should be rewarded for working hard and always showing up to work.

If you are putting in time and effort to GM/RL a guild, you should have that same ability. For PUGs, I don’t care what Blizzard does (the Legion system was fine).

Imagine if the owner of a business had no control over how much employees made or what their bonuses were. The worst employee could be a millionaire while the best one could be working at minimum wage. It doesn’t make any sense. No business would be able to function like that.

If you see the master loot system as a form of lottery, you have clearly never been in a decent (let alone good) raiding guild… which is obvious from your armory.

Ever hear of warfronts? Can literally afk into a 425 piece.

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First of all, forced personal loot sucks. It still sucks. It didn’t fix loot funneling, it just made it so that top guilds spend millions of gold to be able to funnel loot. That’s arguably inching toward a pay-to-win system. I can’t say whether it had an effect on the other problem it was ostensibly trying to solve, which is people in pugs not being allowed to have items, because I haven’t pugged since LFR came out, because LFR was the pug replacement, and I don’t do that anymore, because let’s face it, LFR just sucks. As for new guild members, well, we had a separate raid that we funneled all of those people to, but it fell apart, so now we mostly just don’t invite new people. Anyway, on to your actual question.

Let’s be clear here that “zero effort” isn’t literally zero effort. It’s shorthand for an amount of effort so minimal as to be trivial. In current content, Battle for Darkshore counts as zero effort. You can queue up, run around dying all the time, and odds are pretty good the rest of the group that’s forced to be with you (who probably isn’t paying attention to whether you’re being useful) is going to carry you through content. And for this, you deserve gear that’s equal to current heroic raid level. Doesn’t really matter if it’s only one piece for a weekly quest or a chance to drop off a boss; it’s still moronic that it’s the same level. Likewise, doing a couple world quests for a guaranteed item of some type also probably counts as “zero effort.”

What qualifies as earning it? In short, requiring a group made by players, not the game. That means mythic plus and organized raiding. Looking for Raid is welfare epics. Warfronts are welfare epics. Emissaries and world quests are welfare epics, but if they’re giving you gear of a level equal to last tier’s LFR, probably nobody cares, because those were welfare epics to begin with. Plus, I got four items raiding last night. Was any of that fun? Not really. The game just kinda handed them to me.

How do we react to someone with a higher item level? It depends. Did they earn it through an organized group? Are they a mythic raider? Is it clear they routinely clear high-level M+? That’s worthy of respect. They earned it. Did they just get lucky on a bunch of war/titanforge procs from welfare content? Not so much.

So here’s the answer to your ultimate question: what makes me feel like I earned a piece of loot? To be honest, part of this involves bringing back master loot. Because loot doesn’t feel earned when the game just gives it to you. That’s just you getting lucky. Loot feels earned when your fellow players give it to you.

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I don’t know what you expect.

It seems you are upset because CMs dont snap their fingers and make the game perfect for you.

Their gig is to listen to your feedback, give their opinion, and explain Blizzard’s position.

Some of this anti Blizz stuff wanders a bit far.

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Players who do content of trivial difficulty should not receive equal rewards.

Players who do content of non-trivial difficulty expend additional effort and should be additionally rewarded for that effort.

To put it simply, weight rewards based on difficulty. You already do this by the base item level of content (i.e. M+ keystone number and raid difficulty). The issue is that you add an unnecessary layer of randomization that has the potential to completely negate weighted difficulty rewards.

A player who does trivial content does not require the best rewards in the game. They may be satisified with a base level upgrade. And that’s all they need for the content they are doing. When this player looks at a fully mythic raid gear player, they can appreciate the effort that was put in and the tangible benefit to mythic raiding. It’s not just about the the prestige and satisification of completing difficult content. And this may create aspirations for players to tackle more difficult content.

A player who does non-trivial content requires better rewards because they need it for progression and climbing the difficulty curve. When a mythic gear raider looks at a player who has equal gear from completing non-trivial content they feel insulted. When rewards are equated across difficulties it undermines one of the reasons for tackling difficult content.

I don’t quite understand how your play style doesn’t work though and not sure if this is really related to TF/WF.

You are focusing on raiding (it sounds like) and getting toward the item level of that raid and you aren’t putting in extra hours to maximize gear. Is that right? So if you aren’t putting in a bunch of extra hours, is your gear bothering you because you used to do that and you aren’t used to being a lower item level than the others you play with?

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sigh Why do these forums insist on selecting a random character every time I log in?

Hearthstone is going through this right now. It’s incredibly frustrating when a game pampers people who don’t invest in the game at the expensive of folks who do. A system that gives some players excitement while also creating visceral anger in others is not particularly well designed.

Now that we’re at the point where Blizzard is reintroducing currency for gear, it’s actually a perfect time to add the ability to titanforge an item in exchange for titan residuum. With that in place, Titanforging is simply a bonus that can be achieved through luck or work. No bad feels, no cursing of the personal loot luck gods, and it even extends the life of the titan residuum system!

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I tried I really did my problem was that for years I was hardcore raider, I loved raiding and it was my favorite part of the game. Still is. I love raiding because of the team work and the ability to improve your character while seeing some cool content. In BFA I was no longer able to accomplish the gearing aspect and that was part of the fun for me. I liked getting better and stronger even if it meant doing heroic and going into some mythic. I just found that with the RNG present in the game I knew I was going to be left out. Truth be told if the Legion model was still around in this xpac I would still be playing. I never felt like I couldn’t get the gear I wanted or didn’t have at least access to getting it. I know now with my limited time that I am not going to be able to find the joy I used to in game. I get angry sometimes, I wanted to leave WoW on my terms not be forced out cause it changed too much for me. I’m just old with a demanding job and family I guess I had to quit sometime.

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Way back in the day when Alterac Valley BG lasted for HOURS…There were people in there AFKing for the rep. This is nothing new just a lame way mind set. I recall many fishing in the pond which no longer exists, and or running against buildings, and hiding out in the Harpy Cave.

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Gonna guess here, but it’s probably bothering him because maximizing gear means doing a bunch of content that isn’t raiding. Maximizing gear means doing island expeditions and warfronts and other content of trivial difficulty so that he can do the content of actual difficulty, which is raiding.

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The issue is, when someone who only does Normal or only does M+ gets something at 415+ it invalidates the time and effort that people put in to do Mythic Raid Content or Elite/Gladiator level PvP. That’s the bottom line. Titanforging invalidates the efforts of people who do top end content and promotes/encourages laziness in the playerbase because they can just “get lucky” instead of having to get better.

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Oh no the dreaded your armory sucks so you suck argument. I haven’t raided in a guild since firelands. It doesn’t mean I don’t understand the game and things. Its clear that all your vaulted experience hasn’t taught you that valuable lesson.

Master looter is still a form of lottery. The tickets are just bought with a different currency. Showing up, farming mats, performing well etc. It is all a lottery with the master looter the one in control of how that lottery is distributed.

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I agree with what you are saying. It doesn’t make me upset or anything, but I simply don’t like that system. If they are going to do these upgrade things then why not use that system they did awhile back where you upgrade the gear 1-3 times? This will encourage people to do more things as you would need to basically purchase the upgrades via some type of currency which can drop for a bunch of things besides raids.

IMO Warforge/Titanforge is just another way to get top gear doing little to no work which in BfA has been a huge mess.

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From my point of view, I don’t see how someone doing Heroic content can have a reasonable excuse to receive an item if Mythic Grade or higher.

Do you know what we mean? If I do Mythic and a 415 drops, someone can do a heroic and get a 415 as well, or even a 425. It’s super discouraging to try and do Mythic when the gear it drops is not even the best it could be.

Also having sockets be part of the Warforging System is the worst thing that has ever happened to gear, and as a healer, having leech be a very valuable stat makes me sick knowing it’s impossible for me to ever fully gear a character within a tier, unlike how we were able to in prior years.

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So you’re using a BAD GAME DESIGN element from the past to defend a BAD GAME DESIGN element from the present?

Nice logic.

How about we fix the BAD GAME DESIGN instead of making bad excuses for them?

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I am presenting to you a different view. One that most won’t agree with but is still the truth.

People say Mythic + and Mythic raids are the hardest to do. I say that’s not true.

You want to know whats harder to do ?

Questing.
Grinding quests all day every day…

If all you do is Mythic + you probably won’t get flying until you complain about it AFTER the people that have grinded for a long time doing quests. This has happened the last two expansions. And THAT ticks me off.

I grind my butt off for months to get flying ( see Titanforged gear ) only to have the requirements lowered because the people that do Mythic + content don’t bother to do the daily grind.

You feel let down because you do Mythic + ?

Well my friend I feel let down when blizzard lowers requirements for flying just to please a few people that cry because they didnt go out and do that grinding.

So I say the constant daily grind to get things like flying ( titanforged gear ) is just as hard as Mythic + content.
It’s all very relative.

Titanforging and Warforging go against the MMO ground rules for me. It used to be that fulfillment was attained through dedication of time, and connections were forged through the community you chose to involve yourself in which would then in turn also grant recognition for what you did and how you did it.

TF / WF, personal loot, and the pure abandonment of guild life from Blizz has all but destroyed these pillars, and we’ve traded fulfillment and social networking, along with tools for these environments like master looter for lottery RNG WF / TF nonsense.

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I see what you are saying about the “zero effort”, but in a related conversation, if you are doing all of the sources of gear it does take time and a commitment. Do you feel that if someone is doing an organized raid for 4ish hours a week they should without question be a higher item level than someone who doesn’t raid but likes to do a variety of different things - often by themself - but plays for 20ish hours a week?

How does it feel if you get passed over on receiving the same item multiple times in a row?

In your opinion, should mythic plus and organized raiding be the only sources of loot and everything else gives some flatline blue gear?

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