Covenant Renown isn’t significantly attached to player power in the AP grinds were. Per Wowhead Renown is used for:
Unlocking a new row of power for a Soulbind character.
Increasing the item level of items you receive from World Quests.
Increasing the maximum potential level of the features within your Sanctum.
Earning legendary recipes for the runecrafter in Torghast.
Earning unique Covenant-themed cosmetic items such as mounts, pets, a title, back attachment transmog, and transmog armor.
Which isn’t really comparable to the AP. Conduits are sort of like Azerite powers if you squint but you always control which ones you want and again, they aren’t infinite grind the way AP was.
And if you want to predict that gear RNG is going to come back then, uh, go off I guess. I prefer to operate in the reality that’s actually in front of me.
Eh, blizzard has just doubled down hard on borrowed power versus just keeping tier sets that made balancing a lot easier. They like to add flashy new exciting things to the game, yet it always ends up back firing in some way because they over tuned it, and we’re infamous for abusing it. It would of been nice if they simply went with tier sets and then some minor system that’s cool but not over powered. Compared to what we get now in recent expansions.
I’d be okay with letting any Borrowed Power systems apply equally across your entire class, rather than just your current spec.
So in BfA, the HoA was a global thing. The levels on it, I mean. That was fine.
But the second the actual purpose of the HoA levels came into play - Azerite Gear - that global thing turned into a spec-specific thing, and in such a way that you could not reliably farm to keep another spec on par in the same timeframe.
Then Essences came. Again, instead of just allowing an Essence to be an Essence and have a different effected based on spec, most of them were just inaccessible to different specs. There were some generic ones, of course, but that wasn’t good enough. For the most part, running 100% Generics meant gimping all of your specs.
Then Corruptions came, and again, some were great for one role, and totally useless for another. Why would any DPS want avoidance over a Haste proc? Why would any healer care about anything but the stat procs and stat gains (since there were no healing procs)?
Everything about the implementation of Borrowed Power in BfA forced you to participate in largely timegated grinds if you wanted something good for more than 1 spec.
Legion was similar, and was only “better” because it was 1 grind, not 3.
I like the concept of “parallel progression”. Something to work on the strength of your character outside of gear. Something that, at a base level at least, isn’t tied to weekly lockouts (The AP grind portions). But gear is largely class-wide. So these systems should be too.
I don’t particularly love borrowed power but I do think it can be a cool tool to use to make each expansion feel unique. What I don’t like is that we always lose that power so the work we put it never really matters outside of the current systems. I’m not sure there is a way to carry them forward without button bloat. It’s an interesting problem that is in need of a solve.
I’m not sure they’re either, which is why the whole thing is so strange. A completely new borrowed power system every xpac must take a lot of resources to implement and then balance. Surely the easier and cheaper option would be to keep classes (more or less) the same. Or at most add one new ability and a new talent row at the beginning of the xpac and leave it there. And then put all your resources into zones, dungeons, raids and battlegrounds (and story).
The problem is that Blizz have got stuck in the mentality of gear AS content. Instead of treating gear as a necessary part of character progression that allows them to release more difficult content, they treat the gear as if it was the whole point of the game and the content as merely a mechanism for delivering that gear. That was the true problem of warfronts and island expeditions. They funneled gear and AP to players, but they weren’t really much fun in and of themselves.
The reason I don’t like borrowed power is because every time they do it, they spend more time balancing the system and less time actually fixing the class.
Look at Ret Paladins in SL right now. We’re begging for utility and magic damage mitigation, but Blizzard just keeps buffing our damage.
That’s not what we asked for. So when Blizzard eventually nerfs Ret before Nathria, we’ll be a low damage class with no utility to back us up! Yay dead specs!
I am sorry, but you are wrong. Borrowed power is not something we had at launch. Gear is not borrowed power. Gear is a linear power gain. You replace it with stronger items.
Borrowed power are the systems and abilities we gain, to give our character power. Then have to give them back or have them taken away. Our Characters lose all the abilities and benefits they have gained. We arent replacing them with new and more powerful ones. They just go away.
The Artifact Weapon: We spent the entire expansion growing them into a core aspect of our characters power. It affected how we fundamentally played the class. Then Poof. Gone. Not replaced. Not Upgraded. Gone.
Azerite, Essences, Corruption: We have build our characters power directly around these. They completely alter how we play our character, and how our character performs. We have spent 2 years, developing, growing and just attaining them. Only to have them Poof.
Class Changes are not Borrowed Power. They are class changes. They are taking a part of a spec or class that does not play well, or have the intended benefit, and changing it.
Gearing Up is not Borrowed Power. We replace gear with better gear. That is linear power progression.
Think of the systems of borrowed power as a 2 year long buff that cannot be reapplied or refreshed.
Right on man, these guys who keep saying Tier gear etc is also borrowed power are the same type that keep changing the definitions of words in politics to get the outcome they want.
A hotdog and bun is now a sandwich to them, next corn dogs will be a sandwich.
These are implemented for “engagement metrics” I am sure there is a lot of data across multiple games to suggest these help gamers attached to the game. I for one, enjoy the content of wow, but hate the god damn hamster wheels they put us on. In fact, it’s what burns me out each time.
If you ripped out Conduits (massive useless grind) and Class abilities (imbalanced effects that prevent proper choice), left Soulbinds and Signature abilities, the system would be perfect.
Do some Torghast, craft legendaries, get renown to slowly unlock soulbinds, get to pick your covenant based on a fun little utility and cosmetics more than raw mathematical power. The raid looks great, the dungeons look great, the story looks fun.
Let the content speak for itself, stop making everything grindy. If the classes are fun to play and the content is fun, people will do it.
What if I want to play multiple specs that have different best Covenants? What if the best Covenant for a spec in PvE is different that the best covenant for that spec in PvP?
Are we supposed to make 2 or 3 alts per class we want to play?
dont know why people are surprised blizz doesnt care how broken things are, its just what they do.
they release a s****y borrowed power system, people tell them its broken and to do X and Y to make it better during beta. they dont listen and release anyway. patches .1 .2 and .3 change things to roughly what the people wanted in the first place.
this is just how they do things now, especially with activision taking more control
Bull. Otherwise, our gear would be permanent. Better gear = more power. Once that gear is outdated, it is replaced just as when one system is outdated, that system is replaced.
Gearing, by definition is a system that, when taking everything from stat increases to tier set bonuses into account gives our characters power.
Again, you prove my point. Using tier bonuses as an example, those bonuses change tier to tier thus not only granting our characters power but those powers change as well based on bonuses.
And gearing changes much more frequently. Which only supports my point.
You’re moving the goal posts here in order to disprove me. Not only is that an entirely disingenuous way to make your point, ny doing so you only prove mine.
I think you dont understand. Let me simplify it. Borrowed Power is not Temporary Power. Borrowed Power isnt Linear Growth or Progression.
Gearing: You get gear. You Use it. You Get Better Gear. You replace it. You repeat this. It is a straight line of replacement. You have a straight line of progression. And Tier Sets are in Line with this. A new tier Replaces an old tier. The old tier is not rendered useless. It is upgraded. New Patch/Expansion? You replace your old gear with better gear. Straight line progression. Your power increases as you replace your gear.
Borrowed Power: You gain new abilities and stats and power. You accumulate all of this power. Then it is removed from the game. It is not replaced or upgraded. It is also used to compensate for weak classes or specs. Through this immense bolted on power, your spec functions better in some cases cant function without. Then they are removed.
With gearing, even with tier, the items simply dont function anymore on the next patch or expansion. They are replaced. When our Artifact weapons were depowered we simply lost those abilities. The AP and Relic power we invested in them was rendered useless. Azerite Traits and Corruptions are being rendered useless. The Azerite Power we put into the neck, The Cloak Levels to use our corruptions? Rendered useless. Not upgraded. Simply removed to set us up for another system of borrowed power that we will have to invest into, only to have it removed next expac.
The reason it is being called Borrowed Power is because we give it all back. We dont replace it or upgrade it. I am not moving goal posts to prove a point. I guess I am clarifying it.
Creating these external systems which fundamentally change how our specs function, along with adding vast levels of power to our characters then taking it away is a system which a portion of the player base, including myself, do not like.
With a linear gear replacement power system, we dont lose the power we originally gained. We just get stronger. How you are looking at it, class changes are also borrowed power. As they can be changed or removed or reworked next expansion.
If I look at the argument from your side, I agree with what you are saying. Everything in the game is borrowed power. As it eventually gets replaced, upgraded or changed. I am not painting the term Borrowed Power with such a broad brush. I am defining it as something much more specific.
Every iteration of borrowed power has been their attempt to give us back our original talent trees that were taken away in Cata. Back when a dps class was just itself but you could lean one way or another with the talent tree. I still don’t understand why pure dps classes have three specs. If I’m a hunter, leave the choice up to me whether or not I chase a BM build or a Marks build. Do I want 2 pets out? Do I want to melee with 2 pets? The old talent system let you add flavor to the class. Their excuse to take it was that there was always an optimal build for raiding except that is the same problem with every system that’s replaced it but now there’s less flavor/choice.
The old talent tree could have been built on instead of scrapped. They could have a mage who is just a mage but they could talent it to start with frost spells, freezing the target and then talented fire ability that combo hit said frozen target and produced aoe steam.
Multi spec classes like druid, monk, warrior, etc. could sacrifice dps for a bit of tankiness or self healing and then you build npc/boss mechanics in dungeons/raids around this. Have a raid fight where the group has to split, you might need a dps that can take a bigger hit or survive a bit longer running through aoe/dots to get to a critical mechanic.
All started in Legion eh? I wonder…what happened during Legion that all these borrowed power systems began…oh that’s right…that’s when a new lead designer stepped in. Please give us a new lead designer.