It’s always 134 for priest. Lock is much much higher
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Ahh. I never really looked at their values exactly.
Yeah, I’ve been trying to reference Legion videos to see…for those that did NOT use the S2M cheese, it seems that all mechanics are on par with those in the Timewalking version EXCEPT for the healthpool on Raest. The goals for P2 and P4 for Raest should be 40% health chunked away each phase with cooldowns and this is consistent with all the videos I’ve been watching. P5 he should have around 20% so that one experiences the chaos of that phase but is still able to achieve completion (assuming they adhere to priorities and mechanics).
Definitely agree that the healthpool for the Timewalking version is slightly too high.
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Ya, this is how it was designed to be, it’s how it was mainly done in Legion, all PTR guides for SL had it that way, then they stealth buffed Raest health.
I can only speak for the Affy encounter, but where it should be phase 2 burn 40%, phase 4 burn 40%, then phase 5 lust and burn the remainder 20% before mechanics overwhelm you or Karam catches you.
With his current tuning of health Affy is good to get 20% damage done phase 2, another 15-20% phase 4, and leaving him with 60-65% health to “burn” in the final phase.
All mechanics are fine(and fun to manage), health pools on all other mobs are fine, it’s definitely the health pool of Raest that is overtuned and that’s due to them increasing the (affy specifically) health pool of Raest from 70k all the way to 201k without even testing that buff to see if it would break the encounter…it did.
Yeap, it did indeed. I guess we’ll see…I decided to stop and try and get Disc done instead… I’m not a priest main (it’s my second toon and I’m a monk main). There’s a fun challenge that I feel is totally achievable (just learning to cycle through cooldowns). But Shadow Priest has such a hard time with the twins. We don’t get pets to stand in runes, and set and forget slows. Our slow literally means NOT dpsing Raest to the detriment of our run. We shouldn’t be able to burn through FOUR WHOLE PHASES only to find out in phase five Raest STILL has too much health and it’s essentially a wipe.
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Fact: classes now have far fewer baseline abilities and power than we did in Legion with artifacts, legendaries, and tier bonuses.
Fact: challenges are tuned mathematically more difficult than they were in Legion.
Fact: this entire fiasco was a cash grab by Blizzard to improve their 4th quarter earnings.
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wanna show that math?
For Balance Druid , I killed Karan first while the other boss still has around 30% health. It is after the Raest’s range fix and reduced enrage damage bonus.
I was able to heal through it without problem. It is easier IMO, because I don’t need to deal with Karam and Hand after he is dead.
It works for me. Not saying it is best/correct way.
Oh my god…
I finally beat this @)*@# boss…
It’s over. I can rest.
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Please see the edited and more accurate hit point numbers for shadow priest in the OP. I looked more into what the average single target DPS on Karam was/is and used that as a baseline since there is no AoE damage to adds in the first phase and also everything that happens in the first phase happens throughout the fight.
Are there going to be outliers that seem to indicate everything is fine otherwise? Sure, that is what happens when you try to generalize complex things with averages, but the averages can definitely suggest that something may not be right.
Thank you for actually grabbing some dps metrics and modifying the post.
The health values you posted originally told little to no story on the situation.
What videos did you reference for the old content?
Hopefully and Blizzard did these analyzes. Oh wait they can’t, because they are busy harassing women, discriminating employees or looking for ways to get money from users by developing junk content.
The same thing happens with the Hunter, the amount of HP is excessive and with the amount of active mechanics at the same time, it is almost impossible to kill Raest in time.
Botched Hotfix?
By the way, I haven’t seen it mentioned here yet, but this line straight from the hotfix notes is a lie or some kind of 9.2 change that slipped into hotfix notes?
Raest Magespear’s damage bonus when Karam Magespear is defeated first has been reduced to compensate for the change.
His damage bonus is identical before and after the hotfix (500% damage and 150% attack speed), at least for Marksmanship. It’s the standard Berserk spell used by a huge amount of bosses in WoW (as such, it’s not easy to change, they can’t just mess with the numbers - they’d have to move Raest to use a new enrage spell). Maybe they intended to change it and then saw it would be hard and said ‘oh well’? But they left it in the hotfix notes, even though it’s wrong.
I’d still like them to change the fight so that Raest has the proper amount of health, but barring that, maybe they could not ruin a strategy used by many MM Hunters in Legion (52+ yd range = GL with that enrage Raest, too bad your range sucks) and then compensate with nothing but say they changed it even though they didn’t.
If they do actually do what they said in the hotfix, the most a player could reasonably survive from Raest is 200% damage. 500% is a 3-shot with Shadow Bolts.
Fight Strategy Context
People claiming to be authorities on how the fight was ‘supposed’ to be done - the fact is that the fight was virtually untouched from its introduction in 7.2 up through 7.3.5. Many different people with many different legendaries did the fight different ways. I always thought that was the cool part about this fight. When doing all 36 challenges, I wobbled back and forth on the best approach in Phase 5 for every Twins spec. That was the ultimate question: Raest or Karam?
Raest had less max health but you were forced to stay on Karam. The adds meant that you couldn’t burst Raest too hard during his intermissions, but he’d still usually have slightly less HP than Karam when P5 started (Karam regens to ~80%). However, it’s a lot easier to hit Karam than Raest because Karam is constantly on your butt while Raest could be out of range, depending on your kiting strategy and puddle/add spawns.
This meant that MM generally preferred to kill Karam, Shadow and Frost generally preferred to kill Raest (Shadow because of S2M zerg and Frost because tight circle kiting created a perfect Frozen Orb clump), and Affliction and Balance could go either way depending on playstyle and legendaries.
Now if Blizzard had said back then ‘hey, we don’t want you killing Karam first, we want to Raest to die first for the story to make sense, that’s why there’s an enrage’ and buffed Raest’s range to 100 yards, I would have been okay with that back then. It would have removed a lot of cool strategies, but fine. It was doable either way.
Doing that 5 years later while tripling Raest’s HP (not even sure if this was intentional or just a typo somewhere tbh, given that most other challenges have scaled correctly), then falsely stating they compensated for it in the hotfix for it… is less fine.
They’re on holidays now, so it won’t get fixed this cycle, but I hope they take a better look at Twins next time, maybe as part of 9.2.
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“No its fine just gitgud”
or
“No its fine just go farm MoP raids for gear and TBC raids for gems, then buy a WoW token to buy consumes”
or
“The one challenge I did was ezpz, therefore all the other ones must be exactly the same”
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Or the class is different now so the encounter is different now. Stop trying to get modern classes to do what their legion counterparts could, and approach the fight differently. That would solve 80% of these threads.
I’m glad I finally found this numbers thread that everyone references, so I can say it here definitively: classes are different, so the encounters are different. Any comparison to legion is interesting, but entirely academic while ALSO indicating that each encounter went through targeted tuning, which itself indicates that the fights are tuned where they want them to be. This is further indicated by the small number of nerfs that have rolled out.
Different fight. Different strategy.
mop gear (raid) is not good for mage tower, i would take a free azerite shoulder over a 2 slots mop shoulder
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The big thing is we should be asking for more time to do the MT. SL is very absent of content And leaving the mage tower up for the rest of the expansion would be great!
Imagine if we had all expansion to try this and not just a few weeks specifically during the Christmas holidays.
Blizzard has made it quite clear that the preferred strategy is to kill Raest while leaving Karam alive with the changes they made to Raest’s enrage mechanics. A class can be different over expansions, but a “constant” should be the rate at which the health of NPCs goes down. The numbers clearly indicate a huge imbalance in the amount of time it takes to down Raest in comparison to the other NPCS in the encounter. Even taking burst into account, most pro players are just barely finishing the encounter (leaving multiple Hands of Beyond up). You can go watch old videos of people doing this fight as a shadow priest when the encounter was released in 7.2. Raest is able to be taken down much quicker while being able to manage the adds with relative ease.
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Curious. You’d trade *checks notes* 28 secondary stats for 7 agility. That would require primaries to be 4x better than secondaries. They aren’t even at level 45.
Link to that? I don’t believe they’ve posited any strategies for any challenge to date. Seems to me the recent changes point to killing Karem and then enduring Raests rage. That’s what I did.