Thoughts on melee dps in TBC

WoW Classic WoW Classic General Discussion
175

if you simply read you could already tell it was in general. just because i replied to you didn’t mean i was suggesting i am calling you casual. hell i don’t play classic i am here looking at forums debating on playing it so…

push w.e. content you like/play whatever version you like. i like both for their own reasons but yea i primarily play retail for the story unless they change classic to work like OSRS does with the voting system and adding new content.

as i stated. if you aint first you last.

176

Yes. I do. You know literally nothing about me in game so you can’t actually tell me what I do and do not do.

177

I’m sorry but no you can’t. I can’t read your mind through the internet. You replied directly to me so naturally one would assume you are talking directly to them.

178

You know I can just look up your character’s raid history, yeah? lol

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179

Sad isn’t it.

I wish these zugzugs could just accept that they like nearly all of us are at best average to above average but not “the bestest evaar”

That would solve many problems.

180

Yeah. You realize ive been on different servers and warcraft logs differentiates that? I was on Thalnos in phase 1. I was the GM of Full Clear. In Fact I was on Benediction after that because the alliance transferred off of Thalnos. It always amazes me how people like you can act like you know everything about someone and be so sure of yourselves yet at the same time not think… this guy could have transferred servers at some point.

181

Cool, but Full Clear wasn’t a top 10 speed kill on any boss except… wait, did you mean Onyxia…? LOL

Grats on that, I guess.

In any case, you said you push for world firsts. Present tense. You’re not even 15/15. You don’t push for anything resembling world first, even if you could argue you pushed for world first Onyxia speed… when the vast majority of guilds didn’t compete in Onyxia speed at all.

182

It’s not the warglaives though. It’s the armor penetration that comes with t6 and za. Executioner enchant as well

183

Executioner is worse than Mongoose. Percentage based haste effects stack multiplicatively with other percentage based sources, such as Haste Rating, Bloodlust/Heroism, and Flurry/Slice and Dice. 120 Agility is also really good for any class that uses Mongoose, particularly Rogues.

This was mathed out back in TBC.

The Armor Penetration is a nice boost, but remember that is coming at the expense of other stats, be it Crit, Expertise, Haste, or Hit. The best items aren’t necessarily going to be items with Armor Pen. Armor Pen also has a VERY easy to reach hard cap that greatly diminishes the value of Executioner procs.

Honestly, it is just the Warglaives. They are leagues ahead in terms of DPS, especially for Rogues, because of their speeds and the haste proc.

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184

Yeah I do… but I had some real life problems happen and had to step away from the game… I really don’t know why you care what I do so much. Does it make you feel better? I don’t care what you think. I do. I will in TBC. Life happens sometimes. The guilds that matter did… or they wouldn’t be on top. My guild was number one for a week. WClogs stopped logging before they said they were going to. Where are yours? Or do you hate just to hate?

Again. I don’t care what you think I do or do not do. I don’t know why you are so hellbent on tryin to prove that I don’t. Just because I haven’t been successful yet, and ive been close, doesn’t mean I dont try. You have issues if you care so much about what I do. I begin to wonder if your own shortcomings make you feel the need to pull others down.

Holy crap I finally figured out how to just block you. Go take your eternal sadness elsewhere.

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185

This.

Armor Penetration is absolutely fantastic and scales exceedingly well as you reduce Armor more and more down to zero… and then immediately zeroes out to no value whatsoever. So while Executioner might have a sweet spot in gearing where you can rely upon the procs to not be entirely wasted and you lack enough other gear for Mongoose to really overtake it, I’m not sure that sweet spot lasts.

I’ll know better when I have all the actual numbers to play with since TBC p-server stuff is a tad hit/miss with coefficients, boss damage, etc.

186

Wasn’t it possible for armor pen to reduce armor below 0 before WoTLK?

[Patch 3.1.2] (2009-05-19): Capped to 100% (or 1232 armor penetration rating)

187

I don’t think so, the change in Wrath was making it a rating that had some weird scaling they had to literally spell out to us in some Ghostcrawler post.

188

It is NOT super easy to reach. Go look up the armor values of the bosses in bt/swp. It’s like 6200-7700 armor depending on the boss.

After raid debuffs (sunder, fairie fire, etc) you still need like 3-4K arp to hit 0. You’re not getting there without a proc, wether it’s exe, warpspring, madness or w/e

189

Probably because you felt it was necessary to bring up in the first place, bud. If you don’t want people scrutinizing your accomplishments, don’t laud them around.

I’m not really. I made one quick comment about something you said, and was otherwise talking about the subject: melee DPS in TBC.

As you might recall:

Then that was followed by what I found to be a funny comment you made immediately afterwards saying that you min/max, aren’t casual, push for world firsts, and have a top 10 speed kill.

“Who cares if you aren’t in Progress?”
“I push for world firsts!”

The second part was amusing to me because… you don’t. You can’t even clear the raid, regardless of whatever reasons you may have for that.

Pull? Bud, you should take a look at my logs if you think I have to pull you down to make myself feel better. LOL

Don’t get full of yourself, pup.

No. Armor Pen wasn’t a percentage in TBC, so it worked differently. You can’t have negative armor, so anything beyond the actual armor value does nothing.

In WotLK, Armor Pen was changed to be percentage based, and functioned differently as far as calculations go, such that you could remove over 100% of the damage reduction that armor was giving. If armor was giving you 25% damage reduction, 200% ArP would give you 25% bonus damage.

You’re not very good at math.

6,200
-2,600 (Sunder Armor)
-610 (Faerie Fire)
-810 (Curse of Recklessness)
= 2,180
-840 ArP from an Executioner proc.
-1000 from Warp-Spring Coil or -1200 from Badge of the Swarmguard
= 340 or 140.

Your BiS gear in T5 will have that much passive ArP, I guarantee you. Any more than 340 on your gear, and you start to lose value on your Executioner proc or your trinket effects. You won’t have Shard of Contempt until SWP is released, so you’re probably going to be using DST + WSC, which means reaching the hard ArP cap is a very real possibility for a majority of fights.

That results in any extra being wasted. And by the time Executioner is out, you can reach passive ArP values in the 4 digit range. Even T5 level gear has more than enough ArP available to reach that cap, with T6 and SWP gear having enough passive ArP to push you over cap even on 7,700 armor bosses.

190

Yes. So you need 340 arp on gear to reach 0 armor on the lowest armor boss with exe and coil proc.

Now you need to come up with another 840 arp on gear to replace exe.

This is not very easy pre swp.

191

Soa which is it? You say private servers are unreliable but then go onto say they are?

Private servers change a lot of things.

This whole argument is absolutely stupid. The only “melee” class that will most likely be shunned in TBC is a fury warrior. With enhancement shaman and rogues, there’s just not enough room for them with a 25 man raid.

Whether you’re a rogue or enhancement shammy, if you play your class well you will have a spot and do well, providing you know how to play. Hell I’m sure even though I believe there won’t be many of them, you’ll still see fury and arms warriors raiding.

This whole sweaty BS argument is simply that. BS that reeks of sweaty Vanilla players trying to figure out which class does 1% more so they can feel good about themselves and flex their epeen.

Play what you enjoy, you’ll be alright.

192

I’m sorry, but why would I need to “replace” Executioner in this calculation? You were the one who brought it up as a reason for Rogues and Warriors picking up in DPS.

Do you not even remember what you said in the first place???

I corrected you in saying that Mongoose is better than Executioner (that is always the case for Rogue, by the way), and added by saying that the Armor Pen is good, but it comes at the expense of other stats.

You are not gaining a sudden MASSIVE increase in DPS from Executioner. Executioner is a DPS loss to Mongoose. Furthermore, the ArP is good, but it is functionally no different than more of any other stat. What makes it so good in T6 is not that ArP has an inherently high value, but that its rarity up to that point meant it was relatively behind in quantity to other stats.

In other words, you have so much AP, Crit, and Hit that ArP becomes more valuable. This leads many ill-informed individuals like yourself to think that ArP is a god tier stat for its own sake and leads to massive DPS gains in T6, and you should just stack all the ArP possible, which would actually result in a massive DPS loss.

The reason your DPS shoots up massively in T6 as a Rogue or Fury is painfully obvious. You have a mainhand with ~20 more DPS than any other weapon in the game at that point, at 2.8 speed, making your Sinister Strikes stupidly overpowered, as well as making your sword spec procs hit much harder, and you have a 1.4 speed off-hand sword and an absurd haste proc with tons of extra AP against demons. For Warriors, the weapons are just really high DPS, so they’re good regardless of the 1.4 speed OH.

My point about the cap being easy to reach is true… if you are going for ArP. Even a moderate focus on the stat will result in reaching the hard cap.

You should read carefully. I said “arguably” that is true, but… meaning one could argue that private servers are unreliable but the fact TBC is so much more well documented means they are more reliable than is being suggested by opponents of private server data.

That’s probably true, but only because most melee specs actually have some raidwide benefit to bringing them.

Their DPS is still objectively lower, and the mechanics undeniably favor range for a majority of fights.

It’s not just 1%. Even retail dreams of having DPS numbers that close, and Blizzard, for all their faults, does TREMENDOUSLY better at keeping the specs closer in terms of balance than they ever managed in TBC.

I am not exaggerating when I say up until Rogues get their Warglaives, they are 20-30% behind Hunters, and Rogues are the best melee DPS class in the game by a considerable margin.

What a shallow and useless summation.

193

Really everything was very well min-maxed in TBC, the only thing we really did not min-max was the group comps because it was just too much trouble to reorganize our guilds for that… Although there were those guilds who thought “Hey lets min-max comp for sunwell” hence the term “Getting Sunwelled”, but that was less common than the forums would promote you to believe.

194

Can we stop using pservers as relevant points of data? They didn’t even have values/stats correct. No way in hell will a warlock/hunter do 20-30% more dmg than a rogue in equal gear and equal skill. Bring the player, not the class. Don’t stack any 1 class unless your entire game plan is to break speedrunning records.