This exactly. In 2006 you’d receive a quest at level 14 to run Deadmines and immediately try to find a group for it. Now people know to wait until they have all the quests at level 20 and run the dungeon then. It seems a lot easier when the mobs don’t outlevel you by 4-5 levels, you can actually hit them, and don’t get crit each time they hit you.
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Its not easier. We’re just a lot better.
Vanilla changes altered the class balance too. They almost always made a class more powerful, though, so it’s to be expected that everything’s a bit easier in 1.12.
One of the main things they changed in Burning Crusade was the levels of mobs in dungeons. In classic you’ve got dungeons like Uldaman where the mobs at the start are level 40, but the end boss is level 48. A group of level 40s in classic can easily find themselves out of their depth halfway in. But if you go in at level 46, the dungeon is very easy.
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The claims that players have improved are easily dismissed. In the end it comes down to either tuning or poor memory.
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It’s quite possible that the 1.12 reference was different from most of our experiences because most of us weren’t running SFK in 1.12. I had a couple 60s way before 1.12 and was spending most of my time in level 55+ content. So it’s possible nerfs came in towards the end of Vanilla that most of us didn’t notice because we had already gone through it when it was harder. I think there were some discussions recently about open world elites being merged to be regular mobs in 1.11. That alone makes some of the quests in the area easier. I wonder how much nerfing dungeons had in those final patches of Vanilla that a lot of us never noticed because we weren’t running that content anymore.
A case is beginning to emerge that perhaps 1.12 was not the build they should have used. I can’t say for sure, but I’m starting to view these discrepancies as less about mistaken memories and more about a question of which patch.
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I started playing a few months before BC was released and the dungeons seem normal to me. I’m playing the same class and race. My first time ever running Deadmines, I was probably about level 16. It was frankly quite intense. I ran it several more times and it got noticeably easier with every new heal rank. I made a rule then not to go into Deadmines until level 20, no matter the class I played. It just made sense to be better prepared and not just go in as soon as I could. But I had been asked my first time and didn’t want to disappoint. Healers were hard to come by, I was told.
Fast forward to 2019. I remembered my level 20 rule, but went in at level 19. Thanks to some well timed off healing by both my paladin and druid partymates, it was pretty rough, but not like my first experience. Tank was also 19. I hit 20 and got my new heal ranks after the run. Did another run and it was a big improvement. I wasn’t oom halfway through every boss fight anymore. Level always made a huge difference and still does.
Also, in November of '06, I soloed Deadmines at level 40, and my priest was holy specced. I was helping someone out and he couldn’t find a group. I told him I’d go as far as I could and didn’t expect that I’d be able to do it all, but I managed.
I think you anecdotally reinforce my theory that later patches had indeed nerfed dungeons from what they were in earlier patches. I think that’s what might be the disconnect. 1.12, as a 1-60 experience, may indeed be easy mode Vanilla.
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They are too easy. We shouldnt be able to faceroll this stuff, at level.
It is what it is though.
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I will play on regardless. Pve can’t beat pvp for challenge, and pve is fun even if nerfed. imo obv.
However…
repeating myself a bit but… I would buff everything elite, add random boss spawns, random pats, random mobs, and random champions
Switch up bosses (not from ine raid to another, just you never know who will spawn) in raids (infrequently to rarely), and only after a lock has occurred.
Give bosses alternative behaviors to chose from.
Lastly, I’d randomize epic loot a bit more.
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This sounds like a nice idea of Classic +
My experience in original vanilla was primarily healing dungeons and leveling in the months before Burning Crusade dropped. Afterwards I rerolled a Blood Elf Priest and made that my main, which I played off-and-on all the way through Legion.
I distinctly remember instances like Shadowfang Keep (which I did multiple times from 20-25 back then) absolutely requiring coordinated crowd control on pulls, and the elite mobs hitting a lot harder than they do now. I would not have been able to survive pulling aggro in this dungeon for more than a few hits back then; and a tank using a 2H Staff wouldn’t have survived the first room even with the best of healers.
I leveled mostly through dungeons back then, and ran Zul Farrak, BFD, and Sunken Temple more times than I can count. Even in RFK/RFD crowd control was required for every pull, and I distinctly remember using focus target macros for Shackle Undead/Mind Control on specific pulls.
I will reserve judgement as we progress into higher level instances, but this seems much easier than I remember, and not just in a way that can be attributed to “we play better and are smarter.” The damage just doesn’t seem the same. They could double the damage of every mob and it would start to be a challenge.
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tough question.
the early part of your statement suggest that yes, people got better after 15 years of gaming ( gasp!)
but your surprise about a tank using a staff suggest you haven’t learned much
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Honestly instances are about the same I remember them, barring some exceptions. And character talents are a lot stronger in 1.12 version.
I noticed people do dungeons on much higher levels then I remember doing them…
I would often do WC or DM at level 18 in vanilla… sometimes even lower.
Now people are like bar minimum lvl 20-22…
Same with BFD… I remember doing it with a group of 23-24s… Gnomer with a group of 29s…
Now it’s lvl 26-27s… and 31-32s…
you remember wrong. ( or you were bad)
your priest could’ve solo’d same-level elite… as shadow or as holy, which imply being able to tank them for a prolonged period of time.
In nwn, my philosophy was ‘do my best to kill the pc’s.’
They complained about the difficulty, but loved the mod.
This.
Nothing is harder.
If you played 15 years ago, you know all of this stuff already.
Not to mention the average mmo player has gotten significantly better of the years, Classic by comparison, is a walk in the park to anyone who has played any mmo recently.
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Why do you keep mentioning a staff when it makes absolutely no difference what kind of 2H weapon they use? FYI Warriors tank with 2 handers at low levels because they’d have zero rage if they used a shield, and that was the case in classic as it is now.
1.12 + players just being smarter in general.
You can’t purely blame the patch # because people still die a lot while leveling, so it isn’t like the patch made classes into gods.
Whoa, galaxy brain progamer here, I best come back once I learn a thing or too about staff tanks
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