"This is the hard tier"

And they were right. BWL is harder than MC. Some guilds still haven’t killed neferian. Some guilds took 5 months to get their first kill. Some guilds broke up over the inability to get past firemaw. What you’re demonstrating here is a selection bias and ignoring examples that are contrary to what you want to believe. The fact is BWL is marginally harder than MC. This doesn’t mean it’s extremely harder, or much harder. Just that it’s slightly harder.

IT’s also fair to say AQ40 will be harder than BWL. Many guilds will not kill C’thun. Many guilds will break up because of their inability to progress into the content. Yeah, lots of guilds will kill c’thun, and in general aq40 isn’t a super hard raid by retail standards. But once again it is marginally harder than BWL. Everyone has to know what they’re doing or your raid will fail. For vet mmo players this won’t be a problem. But for the inexperienced and LFR heroes of retail, they will struggle to coordinate their raid in aq40.

Naxx will definitely be the hardest raid in the game. But again that doesn’t mean it’ll be super hard or remotely challenging for competent guilds. Just that it’ll be hard for people who don’t know what they’re doing and didn’t prepare. Most guilds will struggle a little bit in naxx as that’s when tuning starts to catch up with us a little. The pro guilds won’t have a problem. But it won’t be cake walk for average guild.

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I think people underestimate naxx and aq40 and how annoying and difficult they can be for disorganized guilds.

Yeah the well-organized guilds will be fine and it won’t be hard. But most casual guilds will probably fall apart in aq40 and certainly in naxx.

Heck, I raid in a semi-casual guild with a quality core of ~20 people that cleared BWL on the first night, but I’m like 70% sure its going to fall apart in AQ40 due to the casual people in the raid and annoying runbacks and wipes.

There’s a lot of guilds that can tolerate easy raids, but not any wiping. I did these raids back in vanilla to the end, and its a lot different than BWL/MC.

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Naturally all the resources make it easier to perform well. However, many guilds do this for mythic raiding in retail as well, but continue to fail hundreds of times to progress a single boss. It’s just different types of difficulty, but the raids themselves in vanilla aren’t as complex mechanically, which leads to the “its soooooo easy” commentary.

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The only thing in MC that was hard was the trash, and the bosses in MC are actually easier than in most cases the trash.

Many parts of BWL are that way, but good tanks can make BWL look and feel a lot easier than it actually is. Bad tanks will make you be thanking your lucky stars that you have good ones.

AQ is very much the same, great tanks and being prepared make an easy raid, but if your tanks are not good then it’s going to be miserable.

AQ like BWL is trash heavy and the trash is a big part of the raid, also some of the boss fights are a little harder but only because we don’t out gear them yet. Once you out gear AQ with the gear your character gets from AQ it will be very easy.

Being truly hard mode has never actually been a wow trait, but it is for some people who just don’t yet have the practice or knowledge, and that has never changed.

Well right - WoW isn’t a hard game… it was never meant to be. How come people are complaining about it being low difficulty then… perhaps because they are afraid to play something that requires great skill?

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I can not speak for the mechanics for retail, since I have not touched that garbage in years. I assume they are more complex. I do believe though that progression and raids would not gather threads like these mocking it if the information was not so readily available. The raids are still tough, specially if you do not know what mobs or npcs do. The first mobs in AQ would prolly wipe most raids if said raids actually had no clue what to expect from em.

Its just the audacity to mock it whats bothering. Also if retail is such a great version of wow with such sophisticated mechanics, id recommend playing that. The bleeding subs must be explained somehow though.

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Every single thing indicates that AQ40 will be a significant step-up across all tiers of raiding.

Yes, region-first runs will be ~30min but that doesn’t mean anything. It’s over-researched and fully understood.

However, even top guilds will have to do a lot more preparation for speedclears, especially once there are specific trash requirements as well as requirements to kill all bosses.

Average guilds will most-likely not survive a full run with world buffs and casual guilds will experience serious struggle. If it takes you 90min to get through BWL - good luck.

And finally, if your goal is to simply beat the boss and call it - congratulations, you have beaten Classic WoW. I can’t see many players actually unable to clear a 15 year old raid after multiple attempts and raid-nights.

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Agreed entirely. The one point I’d contend with is concerning retail, personally I believe top end mythic raiding and arena PvP is a good time and challenging. The rest is pretty meh; especially as expansions grind toward the end and power systems become broken. I raided BfA mythic and had a good time, but quit before the corruption system and have logged in once since then without any idea of what to even do =P

From a strict raid perspective, I really enjoy the initial mythic raiding at the start to midway through retail thanks to the grind to progress even a few percent closer to a boss kill over the course of hundreds of attempts. Overall, I love how classic plays.

But comparing them from a difficulty perspective concerning raiding just doesn’t make sense to me since they are very different. As you said, if you had no idea what you’re doing and ran in unpreped and undergeared, you’d be bug lunch. Researching extensively, optimizing every little detail, rolling bosses before mechanics activate, then saying how “easy” it all is seems disingenuous at best.

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Here’s the thing though, every single guild in retail goes into each tier knowing how the fights work and what to do.

The game even has an adventure guide detailing each of the mechanics.

all the raids up until Kael is going to be easy (and Kael might be easy too for all we know). remember back then, the internet wasnt as publicly available as it is now. there wasnt all this information we had for mechanics and builds. we had to learn them along the way. people should probably accept it at this point that all the raids in classic/tbc/wrath are going to be a cakewalk because everyone knows everything now. unless blizzard releases prenerf versions but doubt they will do that to appeal to the casuals.

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This. BWL was not all that hard, but it was certainly more difficult than MC. And similarly, AQ will be more difficult than BWL.

Which are annoying because we KNOW it’s ‘easy’. It’s like there is some mythical dispute people think they have to refute!

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BWL was a step up from molten snore, AQ will be a step up from BWL, whether its challenging or not will remain to be seen.

my guild goes in without any knowledge every tier, and we clear the entire raid just fine. im sorry but classic is easy, like very easy. you don’t need a strat for 90% of the bosses. moving out of the raid when you get a debuff isn’t exactly something that most people have to look up beforehand

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The mechanics are more complex because the games developed over the last 15 years.Most people I interact with on retail (though I don’t really play it) are subbed literally to raid and that’s it.

I could go on about all the flaws retail has, but raiding is not one of them and isn’t the reason why it’s bleeding subs.

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That does not sound made up at all.

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you are welcomed to believe what you want

my raid, thankfully, was able to just read the debuff and step out of the raid. no guide needed for us :man_shrugging:

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There are guilds that still haven’t killed Nefarian…there are LOADS of guilds that still struggle with Firemaw (a boss that has a harder version in AQ40 with a harder to stack resistance btw) every week.

Sartura will be the first hurdle. The second is going to be Emps. C’thun himself is going to be a roadblock for MONTHS for many.

Sure, the top 10% are gonna blast through quickly, but that’s the top 10% - many of which have been replaying this content on private servers over and over for YEARS. The other 90%? Or better… the bottom 50%? They’ll be lucky to see C’thun in person before Naxx is released.

When you shrink your “sample size” to the point where it only includes people capable of doing X, it of course makes X seem easy. But when you include the entire population which includes a 60%+ portion that cannot do X it gives you a proper perspective.

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In all the expansions the 1st patch tends to be the best (imo) because it has the most content, the most thought out systems, and the most avenues of progression. Every subsequent patch tends to obsolete all of the above and replace it with much less things… I quite don’t like this design.

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AQ is a challenge. Real mechanics come to play here.

Bwl did give many guilds hard time with firemaw. In AQ many guilds will struggle on first boss, and every boss except for maybe the 3 bugs.

Even trash here will wipe guilds.

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